[SmoothCollieluver]

Originally Posted by BelovedJuggernaut

I think I have a problem with that statement, only because when you have a good, well educated breeder who is into the genetics of the animal, you know almost exactly what to expect.

I don't want to be insulting, it sounds like you try to take care of your animals VERY well and try and do everything you can to make their life happy... which is so refreshing!

I guess i just have a HUGE problem with breeding more than 1-2 litters a year, especially if you are saying that you don't know what to expect out of the litter. I do understand that some litters are very unpredictable, but majority of the time, you know what range to expect in your pups.

You always know what the possibilities are but you never know for sure what is going to get spit out. yes i know they will have x & y qualities which will be better in some of the pups then others. But you never know how many of what you are going to get. We had a string of all girls a few years ago. Which was great but we soon needed a good male. there are alot of if's as far as color, sex, and coat. The qualities of bone structure and health, temperment we know in advance at least the possibilities.

[SmoothCollieluver]

Originally Posted by ClarkFarm

Smooth,

You have said before that you are in nursing school, have young children, live in an area where your number of dogs is limited (noise factor I think?), show your dogs every weekend, rescue any collies who are found in your local shelters, and you also said you breed 3 to 6 litters a year.

Just trying to help you understand why someone else may look at that and then question how much time can really be devoted to the puppies. I know what it is like to have a "full plate". My mother always tells me I am too busy but I love it as I am sure you do. You know what my mom said to me when my fostered chihuahua found his forever home? She said to me "well thats good. You don't want all those dogs and kids inside all winter". I bit my tongue. I was happy he found his home but sad to see him go. I did not want to hear that careless remark. You know how I replied? I said to her, "well since the dogs can be crated, maybe I should just move a couple kids to the barn then" in a serious voice. She was very quiet for a moment and then apologized. She knows I take good care of my kids and critters. She says a horse is too much work. "Why would anyone want all that work?" is her frequent question to me but to me, its not work. Its a part of my daily life, and I would rather muck a stall than run the sweeper. Thats me.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, just trying to help you understand why some people question what/why breeders do what they do. I hope it made some sense and didn't do more harm than good. I'm not sure if I should open mouth, insert foot yet or not.

I thought i explained this before. i guess not well enough. When i speak i speak about our kennel as a whole. It's me and my partner. She has most of the dogs, and does most of the work. I take a few at a time to show then send back. Before we moved up here I did more breeding ect then i do now. Right now we have 3 dogs here. Over the holidays we will have more. Then back down untill summer. Rescues pass threw here when needed but don't ever stay long.

Edit: Forgot to add. I don't go to the shows everyweekend. Just any weekend where they are within 2hrs from here. Which goes in spirts.

[Stark]

Diggity, I believe you explained it best, thankyou.

Rottlvr,
This has absolutely nothing to do with insulting breeds, it does have to do with the reality of good breeding/stock. The Rott is no different than any other working breed, what you have today is the working dog vs the show dog. You would be hard pressed to find 10 breeders who breed top level working dogs consistently in any breed here in the USA. I'm not talking purchasing a titled dog from Germany but one bred, trained and handled here, it's a reality well known among the working community. How many Police departments do you see using Rotts, one reason you don't is the lack of dogs capable of doing the work. This is the explaination for the shift in breeds for both Police and military working dogs. The next question is why are these dogs not being used, because of poor breeding they have become weak nerved with poor conformation.
If you want to research it for yourself visit the sites for French Ring, American Street Ring, or PSA and see which breeds are being utilized. You may find a few in Schutzhund but in todays trials that may be stretching it.
The proof is in the numbers there, and if you find any look to see if they're from a show kennel. Folks this isn't opinion it's cold facts. Yes, you will find kennels advertising working pups bred from imports until the next generation has to be bred and that's where it goes downhill.

Rott,
I have seen exceptional Rotts for a lot less, a $400 dollar pup that turned out to have the best nerves I've ever seen. Five years ago my Dad had a Rott from a backyard breeder that would put some to shame. Yes they are out there but they're not being sold behind a big fancy web site.

[Rottweilerlvr]

There are many rottweilers in Schutzhund and I've seen a few in PD and the reason they aren't used more is because rottweilers aren't known for their tracking ability. If YOU would like to research the rottweilers in Schutzhund or protection or working, join a rottweiler forum, I see a new post everyday on the accomplishment of the rottweiler in herding, schutzhund, conformation, obedience, tracking, carting, etc, etc.

I have to say that I haven't been impressed with the Malinois as MWD as their bites are weak, and some were loco, biting their handlers whenever they felt like it and not releasing when they were told.

[Stark]

Rott,
It really isn't necessary for me to research the Rott I see the results of competitions all the time. Perhaps I should have been more clear and said they were poor candidates for protection sports not obedience etc. Their is definitely no reason to become defensive, I openly admit the fact that there are Mals out there that do those things you have stated. Some of what you stated is from lack of proper training, some is genetics.

What working dog club do you belong to in your area? I'm with the Star City Club here in Southwest Va.

Smooth, I didn't mean for you to have to explain yourself. I just wanted to try to explain why someone who isn't a breeder may question someone who is.

I think I understand Stark's statements. It isn't meant as a personal attack onto one breed. He could just as well have used the German Shepherd as an example.

[Patch O' Pits]

LOL I can't even remember if I responded to this or not yet and don't want to read through all the posts. Sorry if any of this is a repeat, I don't feel like reading all 18 pages LOL I just quickly skimmed through a few

My background with dogs is that I show, train, work, occassional breed, and also help with rescues when I am able.

Just want to make a few points on this topic

IMO no one should be breeding their pets, or mixed breeds on purpose. There are way too many dogs in the world in need of homes purebred and mixed alike to breed substandard dogs ... Sorry if that sounds harsh. I'm not saying that pets and mixes are not wonderful, but that they should not be bred. There is no reason to make loving mixes when there are plenty on death row

That being said not even all show or working dogs are worthy of being bred just because they hold a title either. There is much more to it than that.

Breeding sound be to better the breed not to better someone's wallet or ego or JUST because they want a pup out of their own dogs

If one piece of the package is missing a dog should not be bred:
meaning the dogs should be:
- registered with a reputible orgnaization
- be healthy and tested
- have the correct structure as compared to the standard
- Have the proper temperament as compared to the standard
- have the proper work ethic as compared to the standard
- titles in the ring and or working events are a HUGE plus as it proves more so that the dog is worthy

Breeders should be responsible for making sure the pups/dogs are cared for for their whole lives thus requiring knowing where they are and how they are doing. This way they don't end up in shelters or other bad situations

Just my 2cents on it

[reeskujo]

I'm with Patch.Even though I no longer breed due to my own opinions on over population,I still know where all of my pups are and they are all still with the people who bought them.Because Akita's are a breed that not many people are familiar with I would only sell to people who had in the past or at the time had experience with the breed,therefore all of the pups remained with the people who bought them.I now sponsor rescued Akita's with a particular rescue group and I have an Akita that I rescued from animal control.He's in no way show quality and I couldn't tell you the first thing about his parents,what I can tell you is that temperment wise he is one of the best and most sound Akita's I've ever owned and as far as what the breed is used for which is guarding he is one of the best guard dogs I've ever owned.All I'm saying is that there are plenty of both mixed and pure bred dogs in shelters that are nothing more then pet quality that are the most loyal and loving dogs you can find.When I bred I had a few pups that were show quality and have many titles but most of my buyers were interested in family pets.Not dogs they could take into a show ring.While I agree that dogs should be bred to standard there is a place for those that can't make it into a show ring.As for the new designer breeds?I think there are plenty of mixed breeds in shelters that will some day be euthanized if not found a forever home.I don't think creating new ones is really necessery. Breeding is a huge responsibility and alot of work if it's going to be done correctly and unfortunetly to many people do it for the money and not for the breed.It's not as simple as letting two dogs of the same breed mate.Anyway,I'm out of breeding and I wouldn't give up my rescued Akita for all the money in the world and I'm on a waiting list with another rescue for a female.From now on rescues are the only way I will aquire my Akita's and I could give a rats a** if there show quality or not!