[StarfishSaving]

Originally Posted by louise_674

i do worry that people see professionals using them and think its okay or its the best way to go. As someone with experience you can use a collar effectively with lucy i am sure of that but as you said most people can't and don't.

That doesn't make the tool "cruel." That, I believe, is what this conversation started with.

I've used nearly every training tool on the market with my dogs. I am a proponent of positive-reinforcement training methods and that is my preferential treatment. Most of the work my dogs have done has been trained without a lead/collar at all, least of which a correction collar.

When walking in unfamiliar places, I often have prongs or slip collars with me and will use them if needed. My dogs are never harmed by these collars and you can be assured that they are intensely excited to see a prong or "choke chain" come out because it usually means we're going somewhere fun. It looks vicious, and I think that's where a lot of negativity comes from- I'm guessing that my throat is just as sensitive as my dogs' (and I don't have thick fur to coat it) and I can handle the prong.

The prong collar isn't a "positive punishment" tool. It is meant for negative reinforcement- dog always pulls on the leash, that's his status quo; now it causes some discomfort, he backs off and the discomfort goes away. The dog is in total control. You're not supposed to go jerking him around with the prong. And it's not supposed to be a permanent fix. You praise and reward the dog when it stops pulling, or if he's not pulling in the first place, and he soon gets it. Even when I have to use the prong on my dogs in new places, we are soon able to switch back to a regular collar once they learn that they are still held to the same limitations we impose elsewhere (no trying to drag mommy around on the leash.)

[Tulip]

Each to their own.

[louise_674]

I think it is a difficult one because over here if i showed a client a prong collar or an e collar they would literally ask me to leave. Its just not something that goes on here any more and trainers who use these 'tools' are not embraced by the dog training community.

I have my opinion and it is not going to change i am afraid. I will not use a prong or an electronic collar. I am not saying they don't have a place in special circumstances but i do not feel teaching a dog not to pull on a lead or introducing them into a new environment is one of these.

We differ in opinion but i respect your views and experience that backs up your feelings on the subject.

Originally Posted by louise_674

I will not use a prong or an electronic collar. I am not saying they don't have a place in special circumstances but i do not feel teaching a dog not to pull on a lead or introducing them into a new environment is one of these.

If you say no negative reinforcement (which is what I think is the issue here, correct me if I'm wrong), then that also leaves out firm verbal reprimand and any collar correction at all despite what type of collar it is. How do you train a dog to heel in all situations then? I'm very curious about this because I've not known anyone who hasn't relied on negative reinforcement at some point in some form no matter how great a fan they are of positive reinforcement training.

[louise_674]

Not at all. I am not saying i do not believe in any negative reinforcement, otherwise you can end up with a pretty confused dog. I am not criticizing training methods where the dog is corrected, but i am completely opposed to prongs and electric shock collars. Simply because you should be able to deliver an efficient punishment with a verbal reprimand, training discs or even a quick turnaround without the use of anything that tightens around the dogs neck or shocks them causing discomfort.

I would love to say purely positive worked all the way but this is totally unrealistic. Lets just say i am more of a victoria stillwell type trainer than ceaser millan lol

Ah, I misunderstood then- my apologies. Curious again- have you ever had personal experience with a dog and/or trainer that was properly and efficiently trained to use either a prong or electric collar? Or has there been only a bad experience?

I like Victoria Stilwell too except for the fact that she always uses head halters- that's the only thing I dislike about her training methods! It's so interesting how different people's perspectives can be. I would rather see a dog wearing a prong on a short lead than a head halter on a 6 foot leash.

[louise_674]

I have been trained to use a check chain (which is a lesser prong collar) as a guide dog trainer, although these were only allowed to be issued for certain periods of times in extreme cases. So i have not had bad experiences of this just that i can see better ways (in my opinion).

I do have bad experiences of electric collars used for dog aggression by a pet dog trainer. Half of the other clients that it was used in front of never returned to her class as the dog whimpered and began actively avoiding contact with dogs in any shape or form. I also have experience of someone with a dog on a check chain have it loop on a piece of wood when they dropped the lead and the dog was in a pretty bad way after a self correct.

I do believe it is kinder to use a tool that means you can give one meaningful correction than 200 yanks on a flat collar but my real issue is this just doesn't happen with many pet owners who see professionals having good results.

[AdinaP]

I can totally appreciate positive reward training and I know many who have done very well using it. And I can respect those who do it. I recommend clicker training to some people when I think they'd find it useful/enjoy it or are completely turned off by any collar corrections used in training.

Definitely "to each his own" =)

One argument I have heard is "at least if people with clickers do it wrong they aren't harming their dogs" -- and I suppose if those same people were really ruthless they could harm their dogs with choke chains. But to me it's harming a dog and potentially an owner to not successfully train the dog. Untrained dogs bolt from houses, can drag their owners to the ground on leash, bark and annoy neighbors and cause problems for their owner that way. Obviously the dog is not bad...but a trained dog is so much easier to live and travel with. So I'd say DO what works and gets the job done (obviously anything that harms the dog mentally or physically is out of the question and out of the realm of training).

I think when it comes down to it...those who are successful in training their dog, take what they are doing very seriously, work their butts off, read and understand theory (whichever method's theory they are using), practice lots, and are as consistent as they can be. If a method has potential, hard work is going to make the dog 'trained.'

If I just went out and bought a choke chain and attempted to mimic someone I saw on the street...without reading and understanding methodology or anything else...I'd probably be very ineffective and my dog confused at best.

If I just picked up a clicker and treats and tried to mimic someone I saw once, without reading and understanding methodology and delving into the concept ... it would be the same story but perhaps less potential for physical discomfort done in vain toward the dog.

BUT BOTH instances would probably leave me with a dog that was no more trained than he was before I started.

[louise_674]

you are right! A clicker can cause lots of unwanted behaviours and unfortunately they hand them out like they are remote controls for training dogs! lol