Vegetarian dogs

[Smith]

A woman in my dog park feeds her dog an entirely vegetarian diet. This seems almost cruel to me. Anyone know about this?

[Lady]

I don't know anything about this but you are right, that does sound ridiculous.

[Rio&Nickysmommy]

I dont know if a veggie diet is that healthy for her dog. Dogs if they are in the wild eat meat. But then again My Nicky loves veggies and he could use a diet. But that is not all I would give my dog.
Rio&Nickysmommy

[fuzzybutz Pet Bakery]

We live in a small area with a large group of vegetarians , who have pets and feed them only veggys. the dogs are happy and health. as for dogs in the wild eating meat. man once only eat meat but may are vegetarians now. very few of the items we make contain meat.If you could understand the label containt on the bag of most pet food. and how its processed you to would change to a veggy diet for your pet.I have 3 dogs and 3 cats and we do all our own baking and cooking for our pets. none are over weight and are very health and happy

[redridinghood1313]

I don't see how you could get a dog to even BE on a veggie diet. At least not mine. She's 1/2 terrier and insists on supplementing her very good diet with LIVE food. Needless to say, we're almost out of rabbits and mice on our property now.
We could feed her veggies till the cows came home. She still wouldn't be a vegetarian.

[StarWhisper]

A woman in my dog park feeds her dog an entirely vegetarian diet. This seems almost cruel to me. Anyone know about this?

Someone really needs to explain to this woman some basic facts about providing a healthy diet for a canine.

The first thing to point out is dogs ARE carnivore and they need meat in their diet...A simple study of canine physiology will show that dogs are carnivores not omnivores they are just not obligate carnivores like cats are..

The next thing to point out is in the wild when a dog eats veggies they dont eat them like you or I would they find them in the stomach content of their prey digested. Dogs are not capable of breaking down the celluose walls of veggies..in the wild it is already done for them, when we feed our dogs veggies we have to do it for them-generally through the use of a juicer.

I hate when people who are vegetarians decide to pass on that belief to their animals. If this woman didn't want an animal that eats meat she should not have gotten a dog.

[DiggityDogs]

Well said- I agree. I once had a client who began buying the vegetarian diet made by natures recipie because she was vegan (and didn't beleive in the processing of animals for food, period) The misunderstanding here is that that diet is made for dogs with protien allergies, not 'vegan' dogs. Dogs will eat vegitation when left on their own, most of us can recount a time when our dog ate grass, or dug up a root, or ate some veggies that we gave them, but that doesn't mean they want to be vegitarian. Their digestive systems are set up to digest meat, fur, and bone. I do think it's cruel to feed a dog a veggie diet only- and even though they may look happy and healthy now, there is a high likelyhood that 10 years down the road there may be a health problem that pops up because you were ignorant of the fact that your dog's nutritional needs had not been met when he was younger because of that veggie diet.
You can't convince me that someone has done the research to prove that there is no nutritional deficency happening when a dog eats greens only. That type of thinking is also very PETA- Just like when they boycotted petco because someone allegedly purchased a rat to feed to a snake- I love all animals, including rats, but ALSO including snakes. What the heck is the snake supposed to eat if you can't give it rats? :confused:

[Dogwise]

We live in a small area with a large group of vegetarians , who have pets and feed them only veggys. the dogs are happy and health. as for dogs in the wild eating meat. man once only eat meat but may are vegetarians now. very few of the items we make contain meat.If you could understand the label containt on the bag of most pet food. and how its processed you to would change to a veggy diet for your pet.I have 3 dogs and 3 cats and we do all our own baking and cooking for our pets. none are over weight and are very health and happy

Sorry but no, I would not switch my dogs diet to one that is unnatural. Anyone who put's a dog on an all veggie diet is certainly not doing it for the dog, they're doing it for themselves. And as far as dogs being healthy on a veggie diet only, I know plenty of vets that will beg to differ with you. And I have yet to even see a human on an all veggie that actually looks heathly. Skinny, yes. Healthy, no.

Given the choice a dog will choose meat over veggies any day. And shame on anyone that deprives their dogs like that. It is IMO cruel. It sounds allot like something someone in PETA would do.

[StarWhisper]

We live in a small area with a large group of vegetarians , who have pets and feed them only veggys. the dogs are happy and health.

We must have different standards on what is considered healthy.

as for dogs in the wild eating meat. man once only eat meat but may are vegetarians now. very few of the items we make contain meat.

What does man have to do with any of this? The last I checked man and canids did not share the same digestive system...if we did then there wouldn't be so much panic over food borne illnesses from eating spoiled or raw meats because our bodies would be designed to properly digest them.

If you could understand the label containt on the bag of most pet food. and how its processed you to would change to a veggy diet for your pet.

Please do not use the "if you knew what was in pet food argument" because I do know how pet food is made, and what it contains but rather that being the final decision on what I would feed my pets I researched more I studied canine and feline physiology and learned what really was a proper and nutritional diet.

The vegetarian option was never one I considered..why? Because dogs are not meant to be vegetarians, it is not natural and it certainly is not healthy.

I have 3 dogs and 3 cats and we do all our own baking and cooking for our pets. none are over weight and are very health and happy

Again we must have different ideas on what is considered healthy...cats for the record can never be healthy on a vegetarian diet, they are obligate carnivores. They need meat in their diet. Dogs never were vegetarians and never will be. The canids diet has always consisted of meat.

I assure you that by feeding your pets a vegetarian diet you are doing them a great disservice and compromising their health.

[Dogwise]

^Snap!^ Very well said.

[DiggityDogs]

- I agree! I've done quite a bit of study on what is in dog food... also, at one point I volunteered at a wildlife sanctuary where I helped take care of several packs of wolves and wolf hybrids- It is NECESSARY for them to have a diet rich in protein, plus, they eat everything from an animal, even the parts we would consider 'by products,' quite readily. We fed the wolves all of the leftovers from the meat processer's- deer and cow heads, skins, internal organs, etc. After having cared for these dogs for so long the founders of the sanctuary realized that they were much healthier on a diet that included these so called 'by-products' than they were on a diet of just ground meat that they had fed for several years. Just because you are disgusted by what a 'by product' is does not mean it's bad for your dog. Fur, feathers, hooves, bones, intestines, other organs, etc etc, are all very good for dogs, it's not so much weather or not there are by-products in dog foods as it is weather or not these by-products came from 'd&d' animals- (dead and dying at the time of processing) or what other ingredients are in the food (grains, preservatives, etc) and also how the food is processed. Just because you don't have the stomach for meat or have ethical issues against eating meat does not mean you get to decide what your dog eats. Whats next, we hunt big cats and other carnivores to extinction because they refuse to eat their veggies??

[dreamer]

Dogs are carnivores and, while not obligate carnivores like cats, neeed meat in their diet for health. Many vegetarian kibbles are intended to supplement fresh meat diets, (or for very il dogs with extreme protein sensitivities, even to fish OR working with vet for tests and need to reduce protein leadin up to)
Dogs can even survive on an al meat diet, (but this does not provide optimum health). We humans are omnivores and many of the 'vegetarian' proteins we use are just not very digestible/usable for dogs.
Just because we feel guilt or perceive a problem with consuming meat does not mean we should force this view onto animals that are naturally carnivorous.
Besides, aren't plants ALIVE, too, before we pick and eat them????

I am not saying you should eat meat - as an omnivore you have the choice BUT IT IS NOT FAIR TO FORCE ONTO A DOG!!!
:eek:

[scarlett]

Here is the link to a Vegan Dog Board. It's very interesting. Dogs seem to do well on just about anything.

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2470.html

[DiggityDogs]

The fact that these people come on a forum and say their dogs are doing well on a vegan diet does NOT mean it's good for a dog!! Do any of these people know long term what a diet lacking protien does to a dog? They were MADE to eat meat. Carnivorous. You cannot change nature. Just because a dog seems to be doing well does not mean he is. The proteins the dog recieves in meats is needed for hair growth and skin health. Without it, their skin may become dry and brittle, and hair growth may be stunted. Dogs need certain amino acids an other nutrients found in meats, NOT veggies, not to mention that 3 of the major allergen causing food ingredients in dogs are soy, wheat, and corn, which are fed regularly in one form or fashion to a 'vegan' dog. I'm reading these articles about how people feel like they're doing good by saving an animal from the slaughter house by feeding their dog vegan foods, and I wonder why they don't realize that by saving a cow they are slowly killing their dog.

Taurine and L-Carnitine
New studies in nutrition and the heart in canines have shown some interesting results. Taurine has been shown to be essential to cats, but the emphasis in dogs has been neglected. New studies show that certain breeds prone to dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), such as Newfoundlands, are often found to have taurine deficiencies. Studies are also currently being performed on Doberman Pinschers in this area. Other breeds that are believed to be affected include Boxers, Cocker Spaniels, and Golden Retrievers. While scientists believed that dog foods high enough in sulfur and proteins would allow canines to produce taurine, they now believe this may not always be true:
Dietary Taurine Deficiency and Dilated Cardiomyopathy in Dogs;
www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu

The Beef on Vegetarian Pets;
www.canoe.ca
A recent study of dogs in Europe fed a vegetarian diet showed that protein intake was inadequate for over half the dogs, calcium requirements were not met in 62% of the dogs' diets, phosphorus requirements were not met in roughly half the dogs, 73% had an insufficient intake of sodium, a high number of blood samples showed insufficient amounts of iron, copper, zinc and iodine, as well as vitamin D, and 56% of the dogs were not getting enough vitamin B12. Even the commercial vegetarian diets were found to not meet a dog's nutritional needs.
Nutritional Adequacy of Vegetarian Diets;
www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk


http://www.b-naturals.com/Aug2003.php
go to this site and read about some real research. Or google it. I am much less concerned about a web forum's members opinions than I am about the true scientific facts about a dog's dietary needs. I only wish these vegans would get over their egos, and learn a little about the animal they have CHOSEN to take care of.

[seraphicia]

There is a very active west coast pit bull recue in I think California that does an all vegetarian diet. I think it was featured on Animal Planet, it was very intrigueing, and the dogs were doing great.The woman who runs it said she chose to have her rescue dogs go veg because there's a very high concentration of people that cruelly train their fighting dogs with live bait or cooked meat and to dissassociate the pits that may have come from training like that, with food aggression, she feeds them a home made veg diet. She put weight on dogs and worked with them a lot in the episode to curb any agrresion that the fighting dogs might've displayed. Obviously many dogs and puppies werent trained by using meat, but because many were unknown strays, it seems reasonable. If it works why not. There are other sources of high quality protein (soy to name one well known). Many crappy dog foods as one poster noted, don't have much substantial protein much less high quality in it anyway, so it seems odd that everyone is knocking it so hard. There are movements for various things in the companin animal community, and some including this have some validity. As a person who consistenly attempts to keep my diet vegetarian( it can be tricky if you don't read what you eat), i am interested in this concept, and curious about it. As a compassionate person it pains me know that while extremely enjoying the companionship of my various animals, that by buying them commercial dog food, or making them food with meat ingredients bought at any store, I'm supporting the meat industry(except for with my loveable bunny of course). Also, Cats are more likely than dogs to be really dependent on protein, a lack of quality protien in cats can lead to even partial blindness surprisingly fast, so I'd be more concerned there. Theres my two sense.

[DiggityDogs]

There is a very active west coast pit bull recue in I think California that does an all vegetarian diet. I think it was featured on Animal Planet, it was very intrigueing, and the dogs were doing great.The woman who runs it said she chose to have her rescue dogs go veg because there's a very high concentration of people that cruelly train their fighting dogs with live bait or cooked meat and to dissassociate the pits that may have come from training like that, with food aggression, she feeds them a home made veg diet. She put weight on dogs and worked with them a lot in the episode to curb any agrresion that the fighting dogs might've displayed. Obviously many dogs and puppies werent trained by using meat, but because many were unknown strays, it seems reasonable.
Rescue= temporary home. You cannot tell me that this woman has conclusive evidence that a veggie diet does NO harm to a dog long term, besides the fact that I'll never trust 'some woman in California' over the cold hard scientific facts, such as the ones provided in the studies that I linked to in my previous post. Also, there are much better and in my opinion (having been training dogs for 12 years) easier methods of eliminating food aggression in a dog, regardless of it's background.


If it works why not.

Because there's conclusive scientific evidence that it is NOT good for dogs.

There are other sources of high quality protein (soy to name one well known). Many crappy dog foods as one poster noted, don't have much substantial protein much less high quality in it anyway, so it seems odd that everyone is knocking it so hard.

Soy is not a high quality protein source when it comes to dogs, not to mention that it has been discovered to be a fairly common source of food allergies and intolerance in dogs. You can avoid feeding your dog the 'substantial protein much less high in quality' by not feeding the crappy foods that have it. There are a lot of good commercial dog foods out there, and you can always feed a raw diet if you feel that a kibble won't cut it.
http://www.puplife.com/dogcaretips/allergies.html

There are movements for various things in the companin animal community, and some including this have some validity. As a person who consistenly attempts to keep my diet vegetarian( it can be tricky if you don't read what you eat), i am interested in this concept, and curious about it. As a compassionate person it pains me know that while extremely enjoying the companionship of my various animals, that by buying them commercial dog food, or making them food with meat ingredients bought at any store, I'm supporting the meat industry(except for with my loveable bunny of course).

I certainly do not feel that the 'vegan' dog movement has any validity. It's great that you're curious and interested, and I realize that it's quite a challenge for a human to be vegetarian or vegan. But, don't think that you can change nature because you have personal issues with supporting the meat industry. If the dog had a choice, he'd choose meat. Not only because he likes it, but because it's good for him. You chose to purchase or adopt, and therefore become responsible for, a carnivorous animal. You have a responsibility to provide the needs of this animal. Would you think that it would be OK to feed a wolf, lion, or any other carnivore a meat free diet? They instinctively eat what they were made to eat. Of course, dogs need a mix of things to have a well balance diet, including some veggies, and certainly would not do well on an all meat diet either. An extreme in either direction would be bad for the dog.
Here's a link that discusses the dietary needs of canines.
http://b-naturals.com/Spr1999.php

Also, Cats are more likely than dogs to be really dependent on protein, a lack of quality protien in cats can lead to even partial blindness surprisingly fast, so I'd be more concerned there. Theres my two sense.

It's not actually the lack of protein in cats that causes blindness, it's the lack of taurine. Dogs can suffer from this as well, but it happens more rapidly in cats because their bodies are unable to produce taurine. Dogs are also susceptible to dialated cardiomyopathy if they do not receive the proper amount of taurine and l carnitine. Dogs are able to produce small amounts of taurine provided they are fed a proper diet and recieve the needed amounts of amino acids, however, they cannot produce enough taurine to keep them healthy and thus must be supplimented with a good source (meat). There is a lot of information and evidence to discredit a vegan diet- in everything I've read I've not yet seen a DVM or other credible source who says that a vegan diet is OK. This misconception typically comes from someone who 'knows of someone who does a vegan diet and their dogs do well' or from someone who published a book who has had years of experience with dogs- I could publish a book, but that does not make it true. Experience does not = credibility. To make an informed decision about what's best for your dog, you must talk to vets, read scientific studies, find out the true nutritional needs of dogs and how they are obtained. If you do this you'll likely find that all pathways lead back to meat as a necessary ingredient in a dogs diet. Again, I cannot stress enough, you chose to care for a carnivore, and therfore are responsible for his needs regardless of what your personal feelings about eating meat are.

[pbrdog]

Great post DD. I'm in awe everytime I hear some &@$#&^ talking how they've converted their dog to a vegetarian. Like the dog has any say in the matter. I feel sorry for any dog that has to be subjected to such experiments. Dogs eat meat. That's the way it is, and always will be.

[seraphicia]

Theres no need to get nasty and imply calling names. I have input and I left it. I've read extensively about the dog and cat food industries, and the various movements to give our beloved friends a better, healthier diet. I wasn't saying to follow the woman from the pit bull rescue, nor is there a need to knock her for trying to do what she can to help prevent food related dog aggression for the stays she rescues, as she has their best interest in mind. She does very needed and good work whether you support her feeding style or not. I'm not saying to thrust any and all dogs onto a vegan diet, as four of five of my dogs are on a higher quality kibble diet which ncludes meat products. I am saying that its an interesting debate, and whether you feel theres any validity in it, the debate about ratio of animal products to other products for dog feed is worth investigating further. After all, not too many decades ago, most dogs survived on table scraps, we have come forward from that time as far as research goes, but there are still unanswered questions. As far as studies go, there are MANY 'scientific studies' out there that have a bias outlook in collecting data, and find what they want out of things(any pet food company sponsored research for one example). I'm not implying that the cited research falls into that category, but nonetheless its worth noting. Obviously the people that are willing to provide a planned veg diet for their dogs go to all of that effort, and seriously care for their dogs. As far as soy goes, I was just supplyng one of many non-animal based sources of protein. There are many dogs with awful allergies to the food theyre on, even the higher end products, including one of mine. A decreased intake of meat products(but not the entire exclusion of animal products, as vegetarian would be) helped him with his severe yeasty ears and dry skin problems, as has been mentioned. In posting I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers, but from the start, as the posts went on in general, they started becoming more about anti-vegetarian diets as a whole, in people too, as if a vegetarian person was irrational in chosing for themselves, not to consume animals and support the horrors of the meat industry. I understand your points, and no I wouldn't outright switch my dogs over to a lacto-ovo or strict vegetarian diet, but as far as further exploration of dogs dietary needs (after all, there is nothing 'natural' compared to their great ancestors, about our relationships and the diety intake of dogs), any animal product consumption decrease to find the correct ratio of animal products to natural vegetarian foods for dogs in general, and individually, is really the issue I have. Some people do argue that a RAW diet is too harsh and isn't the best choice for dogs, while others support it, and certainly couldnt work for some dogs with severe allergy problems. It should all be viewed skeptically. I personally cannot stomach killing an animal, nor would I want and knowingly engage in consuming one. I DON'T force my beliefs on others, including my companion animals, and trying to raise any kind of awareness for the problems related to the dog food industry is important to me. Its silly and inapropriate to attempt to turn this into a discussion on the validity of people being vegatarians, so please keep your remarks about the "&@$#&^" people to yourself. And as far as experienments on dogs go, I'd say, there are far worse tragedies being committed by the large pet food companies like IAMS and the such, on a much larger scale, to dogs, that is FAR worse than what very loving if possibly misguided dog owners "subject" their dogs too.

[DiggityDogs]

I wasn't saying to follow the woman from the pit bull rescue, nor is there a need to knock her for trying to do what she can to help prevent food related dog aggression for the stays she rescues, as she has their best interest in mind. She does very needed and good work whether you support her feeding style or not.

The comments I made regarding this woman have nothing to do with liking/not liking her- You used her as a reference and I don't think that's a good reference as to why a veggy diet is good. Whether or not she does 'good' work I couldn't say, but I have to say I have strong reservations about someone in rescue who thinks they're doing their dogs ANY good by putting them on an improper, nutritionally deficient diet.

I'm not saying to thrust any and all dogs onto a vegan diet, as four of five of my dogs are on a higher quality kibble diet which ncludes meat products. I am saying that its an interesting debate, and whether you feel theres any validity in it, the debate about ratio of animal products to other products for dog feed is worth investigating further.

I thought this was a debate- I've provided sources over and over for information on proper diets in food, and you've provided none, so at this point it's really not a debate. I STILL have yet to see anything conclusive that says that a veggie diet is good for dogs. At all.

After all, not too many decades ago, most dogs survived on table scraps, we have come forward from that time as far as research goes, but there are still unanswered questions. As far as studies go, there are MANY 'scientific studies' out there that have a bias outlook in collecting data, and find what they want out of things(any pet food company sponsored research for one example). I'm not implying that the cited research falls into that category, but nonetheless its worth noting.

I think I have found the bias to more true with 'studies' done on veggie diets. Again, I haven't seen anything more than discussion forums, articles about how 'my dog is on it and it's great' and other nonsense. Nothing from vets, researchers, NOTHING> As far as dogs living on table scraps not too long ago, of course. We've learned that that's not good for them. Know why? because we've awakened to the fact that dogs are carnivores and would naturally eat raw, uncooked, unseasoned food. Scraps are not good because of all of the stuff we add to them, salts, seasonings, etc. Of course we've learned that some of the ingredients are not so good for dogs, that's why we don't do it anymore. We ad to our food a lot more of these seasonings and flavorings that a dog could ever handle. BUT, NO amount of research will change the fact that a dog is a CARNIVORE. Period. That point is proven- and because they're a carnivore their bodies are not made to digest a veggie diet.

Obviously the people that are willing to provide a planned veg diet for their dogs go to all of that effort, and seriously care for their dogs.
If they TRULY cared for their dogs, and weren't humanizing them and weren't busy being anthropomorphic bleeding hearts, they would realize that they're harming their dogs with this crap. If they seriously cared, they would do what's BEST for their dog, not just what does OK and satisfies thier need to treat their dog like a human and ease their feelings about the meat industry.

As far as soy goes, I was just supplyng one of many non-animal based sources of protein. [QUOTE=seraphicia]
And implying that it was a good source of protein for dogs. Which it's not.

[QUOTE=seraphicia]There are many dogs with awful allergies to the food theyre on, even the higher end products, including one of mine. A decreased intake of meat products(but not the entire exclusion of animal products, as vegetarian would be) helped him with his severe yeasty ears and dry skin problems, as has been mentioned.
If decreasing the intake of meat products helped, then it's likely he has a sensitivity or allergy to a particular type of protein. Decreasing this factor will not fix the problem- eliminating it will. Not all animal proteins are the same, and a lot of dogs do have allergies to beef or chicken- that's why there's a lamb diet, fish diet, etc. There are other options. To be sure, if it were me, I'd go through the elimination diet to find out exactly which protein source is causing the problem.

In posting I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers, but from the start, as the posts went on in general, they started becoming more about anti-vegetarian diets as a whole, in people too, as if a vegetarian person was irrational in chosing for themselves, not to consume animals and support the horrors of the meat industry.
I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans and don't believe I ever said so in any of my posts- besides, this forum is about discussing DOGs and DOG diets, not people and people diets. I'm sorry if someone hurt your feelings, but there are a lot of us non vegans and vegitarians that, while we don't care if you're a vegetarian, still think it's a little excessive. You're entitled to your opinion about the meat industry, and we're entitled to our opinion about vegetarianism. So- back to dogs...

I understand your points, and no I wouldn't outright switch my dogs over to a lacto-ovo or strict vegetarian diet, but as far as further exploration of dogs dietary needs (after all, there is nothing 'natural' compared to their great ancestors, about our relationships and the diety intake of dogs),
Good to hear that you wouldn't put your dogs on veggie, and especially lacto-ovo, as dairy is pretty bad for dogs too. As far as nothing 'natural' about our relationships- that's because WE"VE made it that way- again, far too many people forget that their dog is a dog, not a human. When it comes to diet, processed meat in the form of a kibble or can is better than no meat. I'm not sure what you mean by there is nothing natural about the dietary intake of dogs.....

any animal product consumption decrease to find the correct ratio of animal products to natural vegetarian foods for dogs in general, and individually, is really the issue I have. Some people do argue that a RAW diet is too harsh and isn't the best choice for dogs, while others support it, and certainly couldnt work for some dogs with severe allergy problems.
The people who think the raw diet is too harsh have probably either a)never tried it, or b)did it improperly or c)are just offering their opinion, which is not evidence that a raw diet is too harsh. It is already pretty well known what the correct ratio of animal products vs veggies is, which is MOSTLY meat. The allergies again, can often be alleveiated by switching to a different protein source. Not by eliminating meat. There is a RARE occasion when a dog is found to be allergic to meat proteins, and in that case it's better for them to be on a veggie diet to make them as comfortable as possible. That doesn't mean it's optimal for the dog, but he has to eat something, so the second choice becomes the best choice.
It should all be viewed skeptically.
I don't think that all of it should be viewed skeptically- that makes it sound like you're suspicious of everything you put in your dog's bowl. Can you show me any information that says that meat is BAD for dogs? because when you can, I'll then begin to view a meat diet skeptically.

I personally cannot stomach killing an animal, nor would I want and knowingly engage in consuming one.
This isn't about what we can or cannot do as far as our diets. It's about what we SHOULD do for our dogs. Again, your personal feelings about meat should have ZERO impact on what's best to feed your dog. Your dog is not a human and would have no problems killing an animal and eating it if it were not provided food on a daily basis by you.

I DON'T force my beliefs on others, including my companion animals, and trying to raise any kind of awareness for the problems related to the dog food industry is important to me.
There are plenty of problems with the dog food industry- the largest of which is the lack of good meat sources being used in foods and the large number of grains and veggies that are used as fillers so they can save a buck. I'd rather pay more for dog food to know that it has MEAT in it, not corn or wheat or soy.
Its silly and inapropriate to attempt to turn this into a discussion on the validity of people being vegatarians, so please keep your remarks about the "&@$#&^" people to yourself.
Again, this is not about people and their diets. It's about dogs.

And as far as experienments on dogs go, I'd say, there are far worse tragedies being committed by the large pet food companies like IAMS and the such, on a much larger scale, to dogs, that is FAR worse than what very loving if possibly misguided dog owners "subject" their dogs too.

What Iams and other large companies do may very well be a 'tragedy', but you also have a choice not to feed those foods. There are good foods and bad foods. I think that is the topic of another thread- this one is about the unbelievable willingness of these 'very loving owners' to feed their dogs an improper diet. That might equal love for a dog in your book, but where's the respect for the animal and what it really is? In my book that equals neglect and borderline abuse.

[seraphicia]

I understand your disaggreement with a veg diet for dogs, but nonetheless, most if not all posts on this thread were about vegetarian people who's preference it is to not feed meat to their pets. The few that their are, and myself not being one of them, there was a tendency to get upset, and not by me. Saying that people who explore a vegetarian diet for their pets dont care and are abusive is outrageous, and it seems there is just upset that the validity of something is being examined through another set of eyes. I was not the first nor the last person to incorporate vegetarian humans into the post, and as a WHOLE, the discussion took a negative outlook on vegetarians, and so I said so. Your terminology in your own post DD did so as well, implying an oversensitive nature in myself or other vegetarians just because they may choose not to consume animals for whatever reason. As I said I don't try to force my beliefs on others, and if people weren't skeptical, nothing would ever be learned or investigated further, which is all I am saying should be done. My personal feelings led me to feed my pets a more humane diet, which also happens to be higher quality, and yes includes meat. Your personal preference may have you feed a raw diet, and its debateable whether or not that is the BEST option for dogs. It is all about the individual. Because there seems to be a trend developing of disecting posts and reading into them what is wanted, I won't post on this topic again, though I do support further investigation into dogs dietary needs.

[DiggityDogs]

I understand your disaggreement with a veg diet for dogs, but nonetheless, most if not all posts on this thread were about vegetarian people who's preference it is to not feed meat to their pets. The few that their are, and myself not being one of them, there was a tendency to get upset, and not by me.
Why do you think it's about vegetarians feeding a veg diet to their pets? Because vegetarians are the ONLY people who seem to think that what's good for them is good for their dog when it comes to a veggie diet. You don't typically see a person who eats meat that has a problem with feeding meat based foods to their dogs because they don't want to support the meat industry. I don't care if anyone gets upset because of what I've said- maybe they're upset because it hurts to think that they're doing something bad for their dog and there's not really a good compromise when it comes to veg diets for dogs? I don't know and I don't really care. If someone's feelings are hurt over having to feed meat to a carnivore, they shouldn't be taking care of a carnivore. The fact is that the veggie diet is bad for dogs. Period.

Saying that people who explore a vegetarian diet for their pets dont care and are abusive is outrageous, and it seems there is just upset that the validity of something is being examined through another set of eyes.

Since people seem to have a hard time separating humans from dogs, here's an analogy for you. A mother feeds her child nothing but candy and icecream for his entire life. As a young child he really doesn't have the ability to choose otherwise. He likes it, but of course it's not good for him. Would you consider that to be neglectful or abusive? Absolutely! That's why it's neglectful and downright abusive to feed a dog an unhealthy diet. The only source of upset for me in this matter is not that the 'validity' is being examined through other eyes, as I have YET to see any evidence that this is valid (you keep saying so but providing no real sources) but from the fact that there are still people out there who SUBJECT their own dogs that they 'love' to this type of intentional neglect.

I was not the first nor the last person to incorporate vegetarian humans into the post, and as a WHOLE, the discussion took a negative outlook on vegetarians, and so I said so. Your terminology in your own post DD did so as well, implying an oversensitive nature in myself or other vegetarians just because they may choose not to consume animals for whatever reason.
As I said, again, I don't care if you're vegan or vegetarian, or whatever you choose to be. I know that it takes a lot of work and is not easy, but that has nothing to do with the dog's diet. In any situation where people implied a negative outlook on vegetarians it's because again, you would not find a meat eating person subjecting their dog to this type of nonsense.

Your personal preference may have you feed a raw diet, and its debateable whether or not that is the BEST option for dogs. It is all about the individual. Because there seems to be a trend developing of disecting posts and reading into them what is wanted, I won't post on this topic again, though I do support further investigation into dogs dietary needs.

I never said that a raw diet was best for dogs, but I don't believe that it's bad for dogs as a veggie diet is. As far as the 'dissecting posts' goes, I thought this was a debate? You said so in your own words. I'm addressing each comment so that I can provide my answer to you in the best way possible without missing any important points. I also support investigation regarding dogs dietary needs, as I'm sure we'll continue to learn about the importance of Taurine, L carnitine, Protien, and other important nutrients found in meat and how important it is for dogs to have these in their diets.

[CanineEssentials]

I feed all of my dogs Canine Essentials. I was referred to this by some local doctors and it is awesome. I see more and more results everyday.

You can get more information on this product from

http://equine.tahitiannoni.com/2129631

Let me know if you have any questions about the product itself.

[Jini]

Yes, it does sound strange to many people, but there are loads of vegetarian dogs out there who lead good lives and stay healthy.

In India, where, for a huge segment of the population, being vegetarian is a religious thing, no meat products are allowed into many households, not even egg. I used to wonder about the dogs of such people and happened to meet some of the owners and their pets.

One such house had 3 beautiful German Shepherds whose main diet consisted of Rice and vegetables and lots of milk. These pets appeared very healthy and happy too, much to my surprise. The owner told me that she had them since they were 4 weeks old, and they had never tasted anything other than what she fed them.

Well, there you are..... I don't know how it works, but apparently it does. Veggie dogs do exist and quite happily so.

[opokki]

I'm not advocating vegan diets nor do I feed my own dogs or cats a vegan diet but I do think that vegan diets can be properly balanced and that some dogs can do quite well on them.

Protein can be supplied by plant material too, not just meat. While most plant proteins are considered "incomplete proteins" because they lack one or more essential amino acids, using a variety of these sources helps to ensure that all the essentials are provided. Taurine can be synthesized from non-meat sources as can many other essential nutrients that normally are found only in meat. As long as adequate nutrients are available for the dog to use, their source is somewhat irrelevant.

[luv4gsds]

Some dogs do great on an all veggie diet. There is one breed that started out being a veggie eater the Xoloitzcuintle.

[n.i.x.x.]

One of the oldest dogs that ever lived was a 27yo Vegan Border Collie, and all she ever ate was rice, lentils, and organic vegetables.

There are remarkable foods now available on the market that do not use animal products, as well as many suppliments. Many people across the world feed their dogs low grade kibble and/or canned food - this has proven to be more harmful to dogs than anything I've heard in relation to a well fed dog on a vegan diet. If done correctly, I've heard vegan diets can really benefit dogs. I'm currently considering moving my dogs onto a vegan diet, but I'm going to have words with my vet first. I'm going to have all of my dogs health assesed and checked, then I plan on giving them a 3-6month trial. After that trial is over I plan on taking them back and having them re-checked. If the dogs health has deteriorated in any way (or if during the trial I notice any changes in my dogs) they'll be off the diet.

Plus, in reguards to fresh meat and bones, there may be a lot of ingredients in that meat that you don't even know about - such as added hormones, anti-biotics and even pesticides.

I think it's unfair to abuse people who are trying to do this responsibly - it does require more thought and education than feeding your dog a meat-based diet, but I like the idea of knowing what I'm feeding my dogs and of being more involved in their meals.

I can already guess I'm going to get a lot of dirty looks (well, comments) for this post, but hell - I'm not leaping blindly into this. I'm spending a lot of time researching both sides of the arguement, and I plan on posting the results of my dog's trial-vegan diet - no matter what the outcome. And really, the only way for a dog to have a completely natural diet is if it were catching and eating it's own prey - fur and all.

[poketmouse]

Lots of humans are vegetarians and vegans and are smart enough to keep themselves healthy with supplements to replace what they don't get in meat. I get it, it makes sense, and it's a valid choice for anyone to make. However, I don't agree with someone putting their beliefs on a carnivorous companion animal that they have chosen to own. Yes, it is possible to keep a dog alive and healthy on veggies, grain, and supplements alone (assuming the poor critter doesn't have the grain allergies that most dogs seem to have). I just don't think it is a decision based on what is best for the dog. Yes, kibble is crap, even the best ones are pretty shady IMO, so you would think that anything would be better than that, and bravo to anyone who is willing to do the research required to give your pet a healty alternative to kibble. But why choose veggies, except for your own reasons? Other than not hurting animals, I don't see any benefits. How will the dog exercise it's jaws and keep its teeth and gums clean and healthy? As for hormones, abx, and pesticides going into meat, the same argument can be made for any crop that is not grown by someone you know. People can buy organic meat or grass-fed, etc. It is much more expensive, but it isn't hard to do.

I don't want to attack or anything, but it just seems cruel to force an animal to eat something it wasn't designed to eat. Anyone who feels so strongly about having their companion eat veggies only should share their life with an herbavore. Just my two cents.

[DiggityDogs]

Ditto that, and I'd like to add that this thread is a dead horse. Let's not keep beating it.