Puppy mills

[TwoJack]

I have said this other places on this forum and I am sure everyone here knows this, but please, please, please don't buy dogs from puppy mills. Most large pet stores use these puppy factories to get dogs. They don't treat their dogs well and they don't respect the breeds. Always buy from a reputable breeder.

[Smith]

I couldn't agree more. Very well said.

[Marty]

Well I see two different kinds of breeders

Responsible Breeder
I feel a responsible breeder is someone not breeding with profit in mind and tries to keep as much of what they breed as they can. this doesnt mean that they do not sell any dogs ever but they do not sell as many as others and try to keep say 3/5 pups they have. I feel a respectful breeder does this cause they know what they breed is superior to what else is out there and want to keep as much of it for them selfs as they can. as we all know no one would sell a dog that they felt is going to be an ace unless they were in a pinch and had absolutly no other choice. you feel if anyone breds a dog they should try to keep at least 3-4 of the pups depending on the size of the litter. but say if a dog had a freak size litter like 11 and they kept 4-5 and sold the rest then I feel that is a different story as the numbers are so high I dont know many that could feed that many along with all the other dogs that they own.


Puppy Mill
i feel a puppy mill is someone who breeds with money being their main drive. in my opinion an example of this would be say having 8 pups and keeping 1 and selling the rest. even if they only have one litter a year and do this I feel it is a puppy mill as they must feel there dogs are not really worthy of keeping themselfs or else they would have kept the dogs to them selfs and only sold what they were unable to keep. but puppy mills sell well over the majority of the dogs they breed just to suppliment there income. these people should not be bought from. dogs from people like this are usually off of lower quality dogs as they are breeding everything for profit and just keep one incase they got lucky with a good breeding.

These are the definetions of how I describe both terms.

[JoJess]

OK I do not know much about puppy mills but I have to say what I have heard has not been good :mad: and I would also like to know WHY these puppy mills are allowed to opperate. There should be laws that stop them :mad: sorry for my little rant but I despice any form of abuse be it done to animal, child or adult. If these animals are poorly treated then why can something not be done to stop it :mad: poor little babes !

[fillyone]

Well I see two different kinds of breeders

Responsible Breeder
I feel a responsible breeder is someone not breeding with profit in mind and tries to keep as much of what they breed as they can. this doesnt mean that they do not sell any dogs ever but they do not sell as many as others and try to keep say 3/5 pups they have. I feel a respectful breeder does this cause they know what they breed is superior to what else is out there and want to keep as much of it for them selfs as they can. as we all know no one would sell a dog that they felt is going to be an ace unless they were in a pinch and had absolutly no other choice. you feel if anyone breds a dog they should try to keep at least 3-4 of the pups depending on the size of the litter. but say if a dog had a freak size litter like 11 and they kept 4-5 and sold the rest then I feel that is a different story as the numbers are so high I dont know many that could feed that many along with all the other dogs that they own.

These are the definetions of how I describe both terms.

I disagree. A great breeder may keep only one pup from a litter, or none. If they kept 4 or 5 from each litter then they soon would be over run with dogs. These pups can't be used in their own breeding program! 2 litters a year, keep 5 pups, that's 10 dogs in a year!!

[Marty]

If a breeder only keeps one pup from each litter, how does he know how the litter turned out as a whole? You are looking at it in a business sense, and definitely not what is best for the dogs. A good rule of thumb when breeding... if you can't keep at least half of the litter, you probably shouldn't be breeding.

A "great breeder" only breeds "great" dogs that produce others of such "greatness" if they don't keep the dogs that they breed they have no idea what they are producing and therefore defeating the purpose of breeding to begin with.

[PawsNClaws]

If a breeder only keeps one pup from each litter, how does he know how the litter turned out as a whole? You are looking at it in a business sense, and definitely not what is best for the dogs. A good rule of thumb when breeding... if you can't keep at least half of the litter, you probably shouldn't be breeding.

A "great breeder" only breeds "great" dogs that produce others of such "greatness" if they don't keep the dogs that they breed they have no idea what they are producing and therefore defeating the purpose of breeding to begin with.
Actually they will keep 1 puppy(maybe two if the litter is a bomb shell), the rest they sell BUT the ones they feel are wrothy of being bred/shown and can indeed contribute to the breed are sold on a co-owner contract... This contract means the breeder co-owns that puppy and there for will know what that line produced(not just based on the one(or two they kept). Not even the best breeders could keep 4-5 pups out of a litter, that would be very hard... They can choose 4-5 or more to be what they call "show prospects/breed prospects" they will do a co-ownership with only serious peopel(mainly other good breeders or just starting breeders who "fit the bill", if you will).... Thus to watch the puppy mature, and observe if the puppy is what they wanted(they see the litter as a whole this way). If not and the dog doesnt pass certain standards set forth by the contract the dog must be altered. I'm sure every "great" breeder would love to keep that many puppies but if you talked to them, they'll tell you it would be a great deal of work and be very stressfull on them, all the other dogs and the pups... I would say if a very reputable breeder read that, they would disagree. Noone could expect 4-5 "perfect" puppies from one litter. Its possible but usually, by what I have heard and read, it dont go pass 1,2 or 3... Some dont keep a puppy based on if they have a dog that still needs finnished.... Breeding is complex, even I dont understand it as well as some do. I'm still learning and I know a few breeders and have talked to them about breeding. I'm sure I could get some info for you on this subject. But IMO, not all "great" breeders need nor should keep 4-5 puppies(even though they would love to). I know a breeder should keep one from the litter, usually being the BIL(Best In The Litter), to add to their breeding program.. And puppy mills dont just choose(they dont choose at all), they keep what ever puppies are rejected from the brokers and pet stores(usually being the sickest or most deformed).. Sad but very true, I hate puppy mills and I agree too- they should have a law out-lawing them and pet stores from selling puppies.

[33MTA3]

Breeding is complex, even I dont understand it as well as some do. I'm still learning and I know a few breeders and have talked to them about breeding. I'm sure I could get some info for you on this subject. But IMO, not all "great" breeders need nor should keep 4-5 puppies(even though they would love to). I know a breeder should keep one from the litter, usually being the BIL(Best In The Litter), to add to their breeding program..

Breeding is complex......what kind of dogs are you planning to breed....are you prepared to make a minimum of a two year commitment to each and every puppy you may or may not farm out, to figure out which one is the best in the litter? Will you take back a pup if it's home doesn't work out? Two years, that is you minimum commitment you owe, as a great breeder to each and every pup. Great breeders will not breed their bitches every year. In fact a truly great breeder may only breed their bitch 2 or 3 times in her entire life.

[PawsNClaws]

Breeding is complex......what kind of dogs are you planning to breed....are you prepared to make a minimum of a two year commitment to each and every puppy you may or may not farm out, to figure out which one is the best in the litter? Will you take back a pup if it's home doesn't work out? Two years, that is you minimum commitment you owe, as a great breeder to each and every pup. Great breeders will not breed their bitches every year. In fact a truly great breeder may only breed their bitch 2 or 3 times in her entire life.
Slow down there- I got a slight feeling of rudness- if not sorry but just the way it reads out to me.... Anyway ,I wasnt talking about Just the dog breed it self, I was talking about breeding in genral(including the information you need on the breed). Its complex because it takes more then just reading one book to get all the info. It takes more then just one visit to a web site to know "your" breed. Complex in that paragraph ment that it is complex in a way of knowledge. You need to know a lot in order to breed a litter properly. And the breed I plan to breed is the Labrador Retriever, and yes to answer your question , I will take back any dog I breed- even over the age of 2yrs if the owner cant keep him/her. And I agree no bitch should have a litter every year, but I was talking about each litter they breed a year- not from the same bitch. A breeder could have 4 bitchs(saying they use studs from selected kennels)- thus breed 1 litter a year and each bitch would have a great long rest(having a litter every other year(3 litters in their life)... Giving a chance to keep 1 puppy(BIL) from each one(if possible).

[fillyone]

If a breeder only keeps one pup from each litter, how does he know how the litter turned out as a whole? You are looking at it in a business sense, and definitely not what is best for the dogs. A good rule of thumb when breeding... if you can't keep at least half of the litter, you probably shouldn't be breeding.

A "great breeder" only breeds "great" dogs that produce others of such "greatness" if they don't keep the dogs that they breed they have no idea what they are producing and therefore defeating the purpose of breeding to begin with.

I keep in close contact with the breeder I bought Dante from. She'll also take back any dog she bred at any time for any reason. This is different than keeping 4 or 5 pups from each litter.
Often great GSD litters from great breeders are all sold before the pups are even born. It sounds like what you're saying is that the breeders should keep most of the pup for themselves and not let the rest of us have a chance at them? Many GSD breeders (the good ones) sell the pups on limited registration so any offspring can not be registered until the breeder lifts the limited status. They only do this after the dogs have OFA'd and been titled.

[33MTA3]

Slow down there- I got a slight feeling of rudness- if not sorry but just the way it reads out to me.... Anyway ,I wasnt talking about Just the dog breed it self, I was talking about breeding in genral(including the information you need on the breed). Its complex because it takes more then just reading one book to get all the info. It takes more then just one visit to a web site to know "your" breed. Complex in that paragraph ment that it is complex in a way of knowledge. You need to know a lot in order to breed a litter properly. And the breed I plan to breed is the Labrador Retriever, and yes to answer your question , I will take back any dog I breed- even over the age of 2yrs if the owner cant keep him/her. And I agree no bitch should have a litter every year, but I was talking about each litter they breed a year- not from the same bitch. A breeder could have 4 bitchs(saying they use studs from selected kennels)- thus breed 1 litter a year and each bitch would have a great long rest(having a litter every other year(3 litters in their life)... Giving a chance to keep 1 puppy(BIL) from each one(if possible).

OK, now, WHY do you want to breed? Is there a certaint trait you want to enhance or pass on? Do you hunt with them? What would your ideal home be?
I wasn't being rude, I just don't BS or sugar coat things.:)

[PawsNClaws]

OK, now, WHY do you want to breed? Is there a certaint trait you want to enhance or pass on? Do you hunt with them? What would your ideal home be?
I wasn't being rude, I just don't BS or sugar coat things.:)

If you want the reason why I want to breed then fine... I have no problems with that, after all anyone who wants to breed should question their reasons.
Why I Want to breed - I love the labrador breed, they are great- they can agility, OB, Hunt test/Field Trials, shows and go into the field with you... and still have the same attitude towards them all. They have a great temperment and a great pesonality, I love their coat and I love how they are as a breed. I know all health problems the breed faces and I know that they are now having temperment problems due to poor breeding. I have spent 4yrs researching lines, breed history, breeders, and the breed its self and have found labs to be a great breed for me.
Is there a certaint trait you want to enhance or pass on?-Ability for one, far to few show bred labs are doing good in the field. They cant get a field title(hunt test or field trial) because they lack in drive or they are to chuncky. I want to see more dual Ch. or even show bred with field affex titles , that would tell you the dog fits breed standard and can do what the breed was bred to do... I want to breed labs that will be able to show and hunt- thats my goal, to contribute to the breed by breeding labs that can do both plus more.
Do you hunt with them? Yes I would hunt them. Water fowl is what I am into and I do know how to start them(novic), I still need to find a trainer and learn the ropes for field training(up-land game and field trials) so I can also be active in pheasant /quail hunting and field trials.
What would your ideal home be? Well the home I would say would fit me would be a 3brm(4 if possible) on atleast 2 acres, I would build a small pond(if one isnt included) for my water fowl training and I would add a small shop where I could store my gear and tack safely. 1 room would be mine, 1 would be a gest room and 1 would be for my 2 dogs(I only want 1(2 maybe) well bred female/s for my breeding program and use studs from select breeders- would allow me to stand by my word if I needed t take in any puppy I bred and would alow me to keep a puppy from the 3 I bred from my female- that would alllow me to start my linage)- I would use the 4th(if I could get a home with 4rooms at a great price) for my nursery(when the pups are 3weeks I would transfer them from my room to the nursery where the room would be fixed up to hold them safely(puppy play pens lots of toys, tiled floors or hard wood, baby moniter, etc).
Is that the answer you were looking for, I thought this threw for years. This is no over night choice, I have thought long and hard on this subject. I love dogs, I love Labs and I want to be a part of the breeds future.

[33MTA3]

Well, I will give you this....they are stinkin' it up in the field trials. Over popularity of any breed obviously is going to hurt it, just look at the APBT and its current plight.

[PawsNClaws]

Well, I will give you this....they are stinkin' it up in the field trials. Over popularity of any breed obviously is going to hurt it, just look at the APBT and its current plight.
Yeah, there are only a handfull of show bred that can do just as well in the field. Quiet disappointing since labs were bred to be retrievers, not just show dogs... I know, its very sad to see gorgeous breeds being bred with no passion or care for the future of the breed. Its gotton bad, I hope the breeds effected by over-breeding will recover with success.... I know its not just conformation , more and more health problems are poping up too and in most, temperment problems... I dont know, I just cant believe how many people breed dogs "just because", its sad.

[33MTA3]

CH Nite CH “PR” Rock River Gap, a 4-year-old Treeing Walker male owned by Alan and Beth Snedegar of Vermontville, Mich., and handled by Mike Parrish of Perry, Mich., was named the UKC World Hunt Champion. The dog scored 887 points........I find this dog amazing!

[PawsNClaws]

Thats quiet an achivement, I bet the breeder and owner are very proud .

[33MTA3]

Thats quiet an achivement, I bet the breeder and owner are very proud .

From the pictures I saw, so was the dog!

[PawsNClaws]

From the pictures I saw, so was the dog!
lol- I bet he was. If I were him, I know I would....