Cesar Millan

[DiggityDogs]

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[crestie_rsq]

I'm so excited! I'm going to see Cesar Millan at the IACP (international association for canine professionals) trainer's conference at the end of the month! There are going to be several other dog trainers giving seminars, but I'm most excited about his... I'm a converted fan. I'll admit- I thought he was a scam at first, until I had a chance to actually watch some of the show. What he does makes so much sense, and are methods that I've tried to follow for a long time, but never even close to being as in-depth as him! I want to marry him! Darn that whole wife thing.

And he owns a CRESTIE...so you know he's got to be just one awesome dude!!!:D

[Canis Humanis]

How did the conference go? :)

I can't wait to get his book. It arrives tomorrow.

I am definately in support of his philosophies and methods!

[DiggityDogs]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[circle c]

I enjoy watching his show.

[StarWhisper]

Well I am personally not a fan of Cesar myself, but I am glad you enjoyed the seminar DD.

[DiggityDogs]

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[Canis Humanis]

I really wasn't a fan at first- I was dead set against him. The more I watched the show, the more I realized that he's accomplished what I have tried for my entire training career. He understands every nuance of dog body language and posturing- there are some things of his that I don't agree with, but for the most part, he's the ONLY trainer who's books or DVD's I'd recommend to my clients. I tell everyone- I'm a converted fan!

YOU clearly "get it"! And, have gained my respect! ;)

When I ordered my copy of his book from our local bookstore, I told them to get extra copies because I would be sending people in for them!

I have studied dogs and training techniques my entire life. I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I started watching his show. He connected the dots, threw in some missing puzzle pieces, and used a direct and understandable terminology the regular dog owner can understand.

I just picked up my book today. :D

[StarWhisper]

I think some of the method Cesar uses are very common sense and they do have their merits, however watching his show on more than one occassion I have seen him alpha roll a dog...which I can't stand.

I would expect someone with such understanding on canine behavior as Cesar is said to have to know why an alpha roll is a bad thing. The alpha roll can also lead to a potentially dangerous situation for the owner/handler.

If someone chooses to do an alpha roll in training that is really up to them, but if this move is going to performed one should understand that they take the serious risk of getting bit if they perform it on the wrong dog.

There are of course other issues that I have with Cesars methods (like pulling dogs on leads that are visably afraid/uncomfortable) but I don't want to sit here trashing the guy as that is not my intention.

I will simply say his training methods are not my cup of tea.

[DFrost]

I think CM has some very good methods, dealing with dogs many trainers shy away from. The advisory on his show is very sound. Some of his techniques are not for the "inexperienced".

DFrost

[StarWhisper]

Cesar seems like a quick fix to me and I wonder how much editing is done and what you really don't see.

I would be curious to see how many of the dogs he successfully trained on the show and if they did or did not resort back to their old ways. I guess my biggest problem is when people call him a "Miracle Worker, Dog Whisperer"...because he takes on dogs that are supposedly difficult to train.

Cesar has the benefit of being a stranger to these dogs, they will act more cautious until they have a better understanding of how he will react.

Anyone here who trains dogs professionally how often have you had a case where a client will tell you how ferocious Fido and how he just snarls and bites whenever you try to move him off the furniture? Now how many of you have moved Fido without any objections?

[DiggityDogs]

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[StarWhisper]

There is nothing wrong with correction..there is a difference however corrections and being down right harsh.

I just don't agree with many of Cesars methods, "Flooding" is another thing he does that I have big problems with. I have seen episodes of him dragging a terrified dog around by the collar and forcing it to face whatever it was afraid of...

The dog faces what is afraid of because it is litterally forced to. I don't consider that training.

I much rather work with the animal, desensitive it to whatever it is afraid of and have the animal become confident enough to approach what scares it on its own.

[Canis Humanis]

I do not call myself a dog "trainer", although I have a backgound in training from years ago. I have studied, trained, and interacted with dogs since I was 9, and studied with a trainer. I have an extensive background in "people" training in various fields. I do work with people and their dogs. I am also a student of Mother Nature, and formed most of my philosophies and methods about 12 years ago.

I just about fell on the floor when I saw Cesar's show. I absolutely "get" what he is doing. Like DiggityDog's mentioned, his show, his DVD, his book, anything he has to offer, is highly recommended to my clients.

I worked with a highly aggressive little dog a couple of weeks ago. One of the owners had been watching Cesar's show. All this dog wanted was a piece of me, at first. I had the owner hand me his leash, and took him for a little walk. It took about thirty seconds before he quit trying to nail me in the leg, and was walking along nicely. It didn't even take a correction to do it. I just kept him moving. Once he was out of his "unbalanced" frame of mind, he was fine.

The owners of this dog were not on the same "page" regarding training. I loaned them my copy of Cesar's "People Training for Dogs", and recommended they start watching his show, TOGETHER.

My own dogs have all been messed-up shelter dogs. My current dog came to me terrified and insecure. I used methods similar to Cesar's "flooding" techniques, to help free her from her fear. IMO, there is a difference between coldly subjecting a dog to something they are afraid of, and getting them past their fear by walking them through it, as a leader they trust.

Every moment a dog does not have to live in fear, is a blessing.

Now, if you want to call me on the floor because I am not a "certified dog trainer", have no college degree, and no membership with the APDT...go ahead, make my day. :cool:

[StarWhisper]

My own dogs have all been messed-up shelter dogs. My current dog came to me terrified and insecure. I used methods similar to Cesar's "flooding" techniques, to help free her from her fear. IMO, there is a difference between coldly subjecting a dog to something they are afraid of, and getting them past their fear by walking them through it, as a leader they trust.

And that is the problem Cesar does NOT help them through their fears, he forces them through it.

The body language of the animals says it all, they are not comfortable. They are terrified. That to me is NOT training.

As far as Cesar being a leader they can trust, I respectfully disagree. Trust and respect is not built based upon fear and bullying. You become leader (alpha) because you are that type of person....not because you force it upon your dog.

Respect can't be demanded it can only be earned.

Every moment a dog does not have to live in fear, is a blessing.

I agree with this, I don't however agree with Cesars method of "flooding" the dog with what it is afraid of.

Now, if you want to call me on the floor because I am not a "certified dog trainer", have no college degree, and no membership with the APDT...go ahead, make my day. :cool:

I am not sure if you meant it this way but this comes across as awfully arrogant and as if you are seeking approval or validation especially since nowhere was there mention of training certification.

If I feel a need to call someone on the floor because of their training methods, it would be based upon their ability as a trainer not based on whether or not they are or are not certified as trainers.

[Canis Humanis]

If I feel a need to call someone on the floor because of their training methods, it would be based upon their ability as a trainer not based on whether or not they are or are not certified as trainers.

I mentioned this because when you asked if there was a person here "who trains dogs professionally", it indicated to me those were the only opinions you were willing to consider.

There are a lot of people who understand and work with dogs, who do not train them professionally. Cesar is one of them.

No arrogance intended. I've just had so many of these conversations, I find it's best to put the cards on the table, up front.

Sooo, what's this new phrase "non-violent" methods? Where did this one come from? :)

[StarWhisper]

I mentioned this because when you asked if there was a person here "who trains dogs professionally", it indicated to me those were the only opinions you were willing to consider.

There are a lot of people who understand and work with dogs, who do not train them professionally. Cesar is one of them.

No arrogance intended. I've just had so many of these conversations, I find it's best to put the cards on the table, up front.

Sooo, what's this new phrase "non-violent" methods? Where did this one come from? :)[/QUOTE]


Your right I said "professional trainers", as in someone hired to train dogs.. I added the word "professional" in there so every person who teaches a dog to sit does not say they are trainer, because they are not.

Nowhere did I mention certification. If you read my post incorrectly then I apologize for not making myself more clear.

I am also quite aware that there are many non certified trainers that are very adept at what they do...We will forever debate on if Cesar Milan is one of them however.

"Non-violent" methods in dog training is exactly what the name states, it is training with a more gentle and less dominanting methods in training. It is training based on using methods that have sucessfully trained other animals for years...I personally don't see a difference in that phrase and the phrase postive training...though I will say that the term 'non-violent' is hardly if ever used in my area so perhaps it is a regional thing?

Paul Owens (author of the Dog Whisperer) I believe speaks a lot about non-violent training. Karen Pyror is another.

[Canis Humanis]

"Non-violent" methods in dog training is exactly what the name states, it is training with a more gentle and less dominanting methods in training. It is training based on using methods that have sucessfully trained other animals for years...I personally don't see a difference in that phrase and the phrase postive training...though I will say that the term 'non-violent' is hardly if ever used in my area so perhaps it is a regional thing?



I'd still like to know who "coined" this little gem.

Having a bit of a background in marketing, and understanding that we humans attach a lot of emotional images to the words we use, terms like this usually indicate a personal agenda and a strategy to influence people through their emotions, by the way we naturally associate words.

"WE use non-violent methods." = Other methods are VIOLENT. :eek:

"No pain, force, or fear is used with OUR methods." = Other methods use PAIN, FORCE, and FEAR. :eek:

"Only hire a trainer who uses POSITIVE methods" = Other methods are NEGATIVE. :eek:

IMO, the proof of any successful philosophy and/or method, is a balanced, happy dog...who is welcomed anywhere, and is based on understanding and meeting the psychological, social, and physical needs of the dog, FIRST.

Sometimes this means we have to put our emotions and what makes us FEEL good, second.

I was up until 2:00 AM, reading Cesar's book. It's excellent...IMHO. :D

[circle c]

IMO, ALL training can't be positive. Afterall, how will the animal understand that it is doing it correctly, or not?

I wouldn't call myself a professional dog trainer, although I do raise & train working Border Collies. I will, however, call myself a professional horse trainer.

I train my dogs like I train my horses. IMO, there HAS to be some negative in order to get the positive. My animals earn their praise.

(Keep in mind, in no way was I refering to "negative" as beating my animals)

[Canis Humanis]

I train my dogs like I train my horses.

I so appreciate and understand this! I never showed, but two of my horses were straight off the racetrack, and I was a big time trail rider.

One of the best descriptions of how Cesar gets a dog through their fear with his particular style of "flooding" I can give, comes from what I've learned about how to get a horse past their fear when encountering a "scary" object on the trail.

I could never physically "force" a horse, against his will. It's all about how I react to the object, the fact that the horse see's me as his leader, and knowing the right amount of pressure to use with my leg or a tap, (not a BEATING :eek: ), of a crop to keep him moving forward.

These are huge animals, with generally more of a "flight" over "fight" response, since they are prey animals. And they "read" you through physical contact, very well.

;)

[DiggityDogs]

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[bekawarr]

I feel that a little tough love is sometimes the fastest and most humane road to recovery... I totally agree with you. Dogs are like children It's great not to have to shout or disipline but some situatons you just have to give 'em that push. ex:my DD was afriad of our 3ft. pool (she's 4'2" ) so i begged and bribed to no avial so I plopped her in and she bawled for like a min. and then I couldn't get her out for the rest of the day. Same thing,trials and result with my sheppie and the tub.SOme times with irrational fears you've got to push them to get them to a positive point then when there is no fear reward with treat/praise. My vet reccomends a "choke chain" for training If you put it on them right they won't get hurt
THe only thing I have yet to cure a dog from is eating guinea pigs/poultry.
Rebekah

[vikia]

I have never seen his program. We don't get the station it is on. But I read his book. I have had dogs my entire life and this book made sense to me. Reading my dogs body language and realizing that my dog was constantly reading mine gave me that "AHA" moment. What signals was I sending to my dog?

I was able to immediately make corrections in my behavior that sent the right signals to my dog. This made a huge difference in how my two dogs behaved toward each other and visitors to the house or other dogs we meet while walking.

I am a believer.
Thank you Cesar Millan.

[GSP4619]

How did you make out DiggityDogs are is it the end of this month?

[DiggityDogs]

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[GSP4619]

Oh dang I did not realize it was an old post. Thats good it worked so well. And glad you got all that product for your drawing.