Dog is Not Good in a Pet Store

[evelyna]

My dog is an 11month old scottish terrier. I adopted him from the spca so I know little of his past. His paperwork said he was relinquished because he did not get along with another male dog in the household.
My pet(G.B.) seems to like taunting the other pups in cages. He does not seem to friendly around any dog. He also seems to like to paw the back of other dogs. I feel uncomfortable because I do not want him to irritate a bigger dog such as a rottie or pitbull. He appears unconcerned he is smaller and does not appear to back down.
He also poops and pees in the pet store. I want him to enjoy the experience of a pet store. He seems more like he would rather establish his order in the pack. He could care less about the toys and treats. He barks and antangonizes other dogs. At home he is very sweet and hardly barks at all. I wanted to get another dog or two but do not know if this is possible with G.B.

[DiggityDogs]

I think it should be possible for you to *eventually get another dog, however you need to address the current dog's issues. He sounds pretty dominant. My suggestion would be to find a trainer, since dominant dogs can often display types of aggression, much like you're experiencing with him around other dogs already. He does not have to be growling or biting to be aggressive. Once you start working with a trainer, you should be able to get him under control- if he thinks you're the alpha, he won't challenge the other dogs for rank since you're in charge. Make sure you find a trainer who has experience with behavior problems, and avoid one that uses 'all positive' reinforcement as these types of trainers typically want to stuff the dog with treats for everything he does. A good trainer should use a good balance of positive reinforcement and corrections, so that the dog learns there are boundaries and guidelines he must follow. He must learn that it's unacceptable to impose himself on everyone that he comes across at the pet store. Good luck, you'll need it!! scotties are tough little doggies! ;)

[RobHedrick]

Diggity pretty much covered everything..

Basically what you described about G.B. is simple to fix. With a little work, mental stimulation, and leadership you can erase that unwanted behavior.

Here are some amazing articles that will definitely help you (if you follow them properly): Link Here (http://www.dogchannel.com/dog/experts/cesar/).

Also if you get the National Geographic channel, you should watch "The Dog Whisperer" on Fridays at 8PM.

Basically you'll learn (from any good trainer) that if you provide leadership, and truly become your packs "Pack Leader" you'll have no trouble controlling G.B in any situation.

Also word of advice: G.B. doesn't express unwanted behavior in your house because he sees it as "your" house - but when you go outside he needs to understand that "you own the world" too. Because almost anyone can control a dog indoors, but a true pack leader can control the pack outside in the real world. Those articles in the link I gave above explains how to do just that. :)

Good Luck!

~ Rob

[Cassiepeia]

I second the need for a trainer here. I personally wouldn't worry about finding someone who is all about positive reinforcement, but that's a personal choice. I would also recommend using NILIF (Nothing in life is free) (http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm) at home.

Good luck with him, let us know how he goes. :)

Cass.

EDIT: Re-read my post and wasn't sure it was written properly...when I say "...wouldn't worry about finding someone who is all about positive reinforcement..." I mean I wouldn't avoid them or just not use them because they were 100% positive, I don't have a problem with them at all.

[opokki]

I also agree with the others on finding a good trainer.

and avoid one that uses 'all positive' reinforcement as these types of trainers typically want to stuff the dog with treats for everything he does. A good trainer should use a good balance of positive reinforcement and corrections, so that the dog learns there are boundaries and guidelines he must follow.

I take offense to the above statement. This is quite an assumption...and an incorrect one at that. :rolleyes:

[DiggityDogs]

It's not an assumption. It's also not incorrect. I worked for a company that touted 'all positive reinforcement.' We were told we could not even use the word 'no' in our training classes because it was too negative for the dogs. every solution to a behavior problem was to distract the dog with treats. There are several others like this in the area, and even one trainer who holds up a variety of collars, even flat buckle collars, at the first class and says 'these are torture devices. from now on you will NOT use these on your dogs' and procedes to fit each dog with a harness and if the owner refuses they are excused from class. This is an unhealthy way to train a dog, much like it's unhealthy to raise a child and never say no. You cannot teach him where to stop if he thinks he can manipulate you into feeding him.

I'm not saying that positive reinforcement is bad- don't get me wrong here. It plays a very important part in dog training. However, you must also have the negative as well. A good balance of the two provides a well balanced dog.

I'm sorry if this offended you, it's not meant to offend anyone. She asked for an opinion, and in my experience, this is the best advice to offer. I do have 12 years of experience training dogs for various purposes, including scent detection K9s. But, if she wants to continue having problems with her dog, she can certainly go to an 'all positive' treat based program. it's her decision.

[opokki]

It's not an assumption. It's also not incorrect. I worked for a company that touted 'all positive reinforcement.' We were told we could not even use the word 'no' in our training classes because it was too negative for the dogs. every solution to a behavior problem was to distract the dog with treats. There are several others like this in the area, and even one trainer who holds up a variety of collars, even flat buckle collars, at the first class and says 'these are torture devices. from now on you will NOT use these on your dogs' and procedes to fit each dog with a harness and if the owner refuses they are excused from class. This is an unhealthy way to train a dog, much like it's unhealthy to raise a child and never say no. You cannot teach him where to stop if he thinks he can manipulate you into feeding him.

I'm not saying that positive reinforcement is bad- don't get me wrong here. It plays a very important part in dog training. However, you must also have the negative as well. A good balance of the two provides a well balanced dog.

I'm sorry if this offended you, it's not meant to offend anyone. She asked for an opinion, and in my experience, this is the best advice to offer. I do have 12 years of experience training dogs for various purposes, including scent detection K9s. But, if she wants to continue having problems with her dog, she can certainly go to an 'all positive' treat based program. it's her decision.

I'm sorry you've experienced some positive trainers that you felt were extreme but its not fair to generalize. Not all postive trainers are that extreme (most are not). And you make it sound like using treats will lead to failure. There is nothing wrong with using treats in a behavior modification program when the treats are used as rewards or for counter conditioning and gradually faded out. In general, few corrections are issued because the focus is on setting the dog up to succeed rather than to fail so he can be corrected. Negative punishment is often incorporated when necessary but since there are fewer mistakes its not all very frequently.
I only ask that you to keep an open mind, despite your prior experiences.
Thank you for your clarification and apology.

[DiggityDogs]

i don't think that it's bad to use treats!! I'm saying that if a program is truly an 'All positive' program, it CANNOT and will not be successful-

"Negative punishment is often incorporated when necessary but since there are fewer mistakes its not all very frequently. "

You are saying here that negative punishment is necessary, even if only occasionally. That would mean that the program is not ALL positive. See my point? Also, I avoid any form of 'punishment' so to speak, because it implies that it happens after the fact, sort of like grounding a kid for skipping class. Since dogs don't understand that concept, there must be a well placed correction, ONLY while the dog is in the act of the undesirable behavior. In general I try to steer people away from chain pet store type classes because these are the ones who offer the 'all positive training' since they are concerned about having a negative image in the public eye.

I do use treats as a reward in the training process, or a toy or whatever moves the dog, however I don't think it's always appropriate to set a dog up to succeed. When you want him to learn something new, IMO, you ALWAYS set him up to succeed. When you want him to stop something, you set him up to fail. For example, if a dog jumps, set him up in a situation where you would ellicit the behavior, correct him so he sees it's undesirable, whether it be a leash correction, squirt bottle, sudden turn, walking towards him, or other form of correction, and teach him a replacement behavior and reward for that. It's a balance. Like I said earlier, I believe that you cannot raise a dog without teaching it NO means NO, much like raising a child.
Of course, there are as many different opinions about dog training as there are breeds of dogs. I do believe that dogs are happier when they know their boundaries, and in order to do that there MUST be negative reinforcement.

[opokki]

That would mean that the program is not ALL positive. See my point?
i don't think that it's bad to use treats!!

Gotcha. Sorry, I guess I misunderstood.

Since dogs don't understand that concept, there must be a well placed correction, ONLY while the dog is in the act of the undesirable behavior.

Would'nt this qualify as positive punishment?

[DiggityDogs]

positive punishment.... oxymoron lol
I once took a 120 hour course on classical and operant conditioning, and to tell you the truth I can't remember most of the specifics. I only know what I use and how it works. Yes, technically, the terminology is 'positive punishment', but again I feel like using that term implies that you are 'punishing', which typically happens after the fact, not during. TomAto tomAHto. lol. I have found that the way you word the lesson makes a big difference in the end result in the clients mind. The average person who's not had any exposure to classical or operant conditioning sees punishment as an after-the-fact event, like when a puppy pees on the floor, and they 'punish' him by dragging him over to the spot rubbing his nose in it and spanking him. This is the type of crap I want my clients to understand is UNacceptable. So, I've wiped the word punishment from my training techniqes.

[opokki]

The average person who's not had any exposure to classical or operant conditioning sees punishment as an after-the-fact event, like when a puppy pees on the floor, and they 'punish' him by dragging him over to the spot rubbing his nose in it and spanking him. This is the type of crap I want my clients to understand is UNacceptable. So, I've wiped the word punishment from my training techniqes.

Thats what I thought you meant. Good idea on wiping the word right out of your training techniques too, it can definately give some people the wrong.

[ibycus]

Have to agree with the wouldn't necessarily ensure that everything is 100% positive. Most behaviors can be trained out, or trained in without using any corrections.

The problem comes, when the behavior is just way too much fun all by itself, and is in itself rewarding. Like eating cat poop. If the dog's already scarfing down on the poop, you're going to have an awfully hard time getting him away from it without some kind of negative reinforcement (admitedly, the litter box shouldn't be where he can get at it). Just saying please isn't going to do it. The dog is already getting rewarded for staying put (and oooooh its ever so yummy, beats the heck out of any treat he's going to get off of you).

Most of my negative enforcement is with things like popping the leash a little, or a stern 'off' (followed by his immediate removal if required). I tend to view these though more as my failings than his.

I took Erwin through a couple of training courses. One through the local Pet store (Petsmart) and one through a local place that specializes in training (Sit Happens). Perhaps surprisingly, I was far more impressed with the Petsmart training than the Sit Happens folks. The Petsmart guy at least acknowledged the potential importance of telling your dog 'no' whereas the Sit Happens were way too extremist in their positive reinforcement methods (although not as bad as the above example).
With them I found I had problems that really couldn't be fixed with a simple distraction technique (at the time Erwin was chasing the cat, I'd tried distracting him, but the cat was insistent that he wanted to be chased. Unfortunately this had the result of the cat falling off the banister, and landing on his side 10-15' below so this had to be corrected ASAP, the trainer had no idea how to fix this with positive methods, so couldn't give me any solution.)

[DiggityDogs]

I know what you mean.... I was a senior trainer for petsmart for two years, right when they first rolled out the new program they've been using. I always tell people they're great methods for teaching obedience, but obedience doesn't always fix your behavior problems, and often times this type of trainer has little to no experience with behavioral issues. Some other places, like the one you mentioned, may better or worse, it's almost a toss up. I have learned that when I go looking for competition classes for agility, obedience or rally, I pretty much have to take the course to decide if I like the instructors methods. I've been to a couple of different agility trainers to find one that I finally liked, and lucky for me she also offers obedience AND rally. :D