destructive?? or bored

[redwhitenblue]

My two babies are six months old. two dobermans that is. Prince and Tasneem. they are constantly chewing on things tearing things up and acting a fool. I am not sure why they continue to do this. It seems like we can have anything of value in this house... the last thing i know of that they chewed up of value was a thousand dollar dale earnhardt jacket. they got out of the closet.:(... I am at a stump they have to be in their crates about 18 hours out of the day because i cant trust them to be in the house alone even if i run to the bathroom i have to crate them. what todo ??? someone help because im losing my mind.

oh and prince is on electric collar and still acts up. even when i shock him he is acting like oh my god it hurts and then goes right backto acting a fool... aaaaaaaah...

[ZenTrainer]

Neither destructive or bored, just developmentally appropriate.Dobe's aren't adults until they are 3. What do these guys eat? Dog food that's high in sugar and protein? What we trainers call "rocket fuel"? I suggest an adult food with low protein (21% or less) and NO sugar.
They need an hour of aerobic exercise per day at least. And a walk doesn't count. Heartpounding exercise.

You need to keep a watch on them at all times. And I hate to say this but anything they chew up is your fault. So they do need to be in crates or outside or tethered at your side. Even when you go to the bathroom.
(I don't think I've peed alone in years.)

Make sure that your dogs have lots of things to chew. Hard white sterilized bones, tennis balls. etc. 6 toys each minimum.

Make sure the crates are in the bedroom with you so that you are getting pack time with your dogs.
They really aren't acting like fools. They are acting perfectedly normal for their age.

I'm sure they aren't in crates 18 hours in a row right? I like hooking a leash to the couch, hooking the dog to the leash, giving it 4 or 5 toys and then watching TV.

As for the shock collar I can't really advise you there. My training methods are based on building a relationship with a dog and pain is not involved with that relationship. I am a positive trainer. I can quote my trainer though, she would ask "How's that working for you?" If a method doesn't work you might want to discontinue it and look for a method that works with you and your dog.

You also might want to hire a professional trainer.

Good luck!

[redwhitenblue]

thanks zen they to are eating wellness Fish and sweet potatoe because of sensative stomach. they rarely get treats with sugar except today christmas but they normally get fish and sweetpotatoe treats also. hmm i didnt like the e-collar either because i am into positive as well so we have decided to discontinue it because i know that what these babies do ismy fault because im not watching them properly

No as i said they arent in all the time they go play for thirty minutes and then run for an hour or so... then eat and go potty and go back in the crates and then breaks for thirty minutes in between about every 2-4 hours never left in more than four hours except over night... and they are in their crates in the living room and when they are let out they are normally laying on my lap and or laying on the chair next to us. i agree they are going to have professional training soon all three of them however mom is going to go crazy in the mean time...

but i am into crate training they know what is right and wrong... they never go in the crate when mom tells them no she waits till they are doing good things and then says in the crate and they go in and lay down... most of the time i dont even have to shut the door... but.. it seems like we take ten steps forward and 8 steps back some days and like you said they are babies for a while... and well.. poor children they are going to start jogging with my hsuband... and i so i am extremely excited about that and they play tug... tonight is the first time i played with my boy in a while due to work and he was so excited and so exhausted just from playing catch... it was great to see him panting and thirsty and then drinking and going straight to sleep... i loved it... and i agree about chews... thanks so much for your input and ill get that personal trainer in here with in a wee or two :D thanks again zen

[ZenTrainer]

Wellness is a good food. Not too high in protein and no added sugar. I'm glad you aren't using the shock collar anymore!!!!!
I too, have felt somewhat reluctant to keep a dog in a crate for very long. But until they are adults what can you do?
I remember Izzy, a black lab who used to board at my house who ate everything in sight including my cable wires.
The pups would be in crates for about 6 hours every night and then go outside to play for a bit and then back in the house. When it was time for me to take a shower, I hated to put Izzy back in the crate but I also like my stuff and didn't want her to eat it.
So I started bringing her in the bathroom with me while I showered. On the
3rd day I realized that while I thought she was quietly laying on the rug she was actually chewing the handles off of my bathroom cupboards.
She went right back into the crate and I didn't feel bad about it at all.
:-)

[DiggityDogs]

I have worked with dobermans (through a close relationship with a breeder) for about 12 years now, and I currently own a 14 month old red male. He's a bull in a china shop! Tons of energy and extremely clumsy. However, he has in the last few months really begun to mature and stop with the puppy behavior. In my experience, that's about the age you begin to see them changing into young adults. It is very important with these guys (since they are a working breed) to get them into a regular obedience routine, and start doing simple things, like having them hold a sit stay each and evertime you open the door to let them out, or making them sit for a treat or a toy. I have also had success with a method that involves removing ALL chew toys, and playing with interactive toys only for 2 months- fetch, tug, etc... it builds a very strong bond, and also keeps the dog from learning he should chew on something when he's bored. Every dog is a little different, however, and I would also advise hiring a good trainer. Good luck! Dobes are great companions.
.

[redwhitenblue]

Thanks so much... i hope they grow up... however i see a huge change in prince. I think they do it to get attention more than anything now. i left them outside with the garage door partially up because of the rain... and they went in and got ahold of my husbands newspaper... and ripped it to shreds... then ran outside and started barking till i went out... ugh... going to get a trainer this week... LOL thanks so much especially for the positive feed back...

[DiggityDogs]

here's a picture of my boy! He's about 13 monts old in this picture. He's a sucker for a camera. His name is Daniel, but we call him dober-dan
http://www.discussdogs.com/gallery/files/1/0/8/daniel.jpg.w180h274.jpg

[ZenTrainer]

I'm not sure why you would want to "teach a dog not to chew on things when he is bored." I think it's the perfect thing for a dog to do when they are bored. I find chewing to be non negotiable. Dogs chew. The only thing I can control is what they chew. So they have access to great chewing toys at all times, especially the hard white sterilized bones. Chewing is a great way to release nervous energy.
Dobe's have a lot of energy. The "run five miles a day" kind of energy, so limiting them to only interactive toys seems like it would be a full time job to interact with them.
I have to go to work everyday, sadly, so they have to learn to entertain themselves and chewing on appropriate items is a great way to accomplish this.

[ZenTrainer]

Re: Chewing up newspapers.
I doubt the dogs did it to get attention. They did it because the newspapers were there and they were unattended.
Remember...in your sight, in a crate, or outside at all times.
I had a clients dogs eat the tires off his car when left alone in the garage!!!

[DiggityDogs]

Dogs chew if you allow them. If you teach them they should find something to chew on when they're bored, then inevitably they'll get bored with their toys and move on to something else. If YOU want to leave them in a crate with a sterilized bone for the rest of their lives while you are not at home, that's your business, but in my home that defeats the purpose of having a doberman. This is a method I have used, with MUCH success, regarding family pets as well as the narcotics and explosives detection K9 dogs I have worked with. Dogs chew when they're little because thier teeth are coming in, and when they're older because of habit. If you break that cycle when teething is over it can be a very effective method for preventing destructive behavior. I'm assuming since you 'don't know why I'd want to keep a dog from chewing' then you've never attempted this method. I can tell you from MY experience with it, it's worked and worked well. However, I'm purely offering my input, which I feel can be a valuable tool after having used these methods for over 12 years, and I don't know why you'd want to try to fight with someone else about their methods online. The OP is free to use or not use this advice as she wishes.

[ZenTrainer]

Well, no I have never tried the method of not allowing a dog to chew. I have never read anywhere that it is abnormal for an adult dog to chew. Can you cite a source that says this?
My understanding is that dogs chew for a variety of reasons.
Roger Abrantes calls it a relaxing activity. (I think many dogs do chew when they are nervous.)
April Frost says. "Chewing is a normal dog pastime"
Paul Owens talks about teaching your dog what to chew and what not to chew.
Terry Ryan says "It's natural, dog's chew".
I don't leave dogs in crates for their whole lives, only until they are adults and are ready to handle the responsibility of being out of the crate. (Much the same as I wouldn't leave a 7 year old child home alone - they are not developmentally ready.)
While they are in the crate (which is very few hours at my house) they have bones to chew for something to do.
There are also bones available at all times inside and out as well as other toys. For the whole of their lives.
A wide variety of toys should be offered so they don't get bored. They can also be rotated (some put away while others are brought out.)
It's quite easy to teach a dog what is appropriate to chew on and what is not.
Any of the above mentioned authors as well as many others spell it out in their books.
It's important to remember though that just because you are teaching it doesn't mean the dog has mastered it - that come with age and maturity.
And to remember that these dogs we all have were bred for certain jobs - not to be house pets and sit around all day so rechanneling that energy into appropriate chewing is a great way to occupy them if they are not out working sheep etc. (Read Jon Katz "The New Work Of Dogs" for more on this.)
I have never felt that questioning someone's methods was "fighting". I've been training dogs professionally for 14 years now. I am almost always delighted when someone guestions my methods. It keeps me on my toes and it means they are discerning pet owners.

[DiggityDogs]

Why would I need to cite a source that says that it's abnormal for dogs to chew when I never said that? I don't think it's abnormal, but it CAN BE a destructive behavior. My dogs are allowed to have bones to chew, several times a week, for a limited time. There isn't anything wrong with that. They get stuffed sterilized bones and kongs. When they've removed all of the food, it gets put away. They are happy, healty, well mannered, one's a senior dog, with obedience titles and CGC's and therapy certifications, etc. I just don't think they should spend all of thier time at home gnawing on whatever is laying around because I'm not there. That's an anxious behavior. Also, while I have studied and used methods developed by Karen Pryor, Gary Wilkes, and others, (prior to becoming a CGC evaluator), I don't base my training method or my business soley on another trainers method. I like to do my own studies, and my own trials, and find what works and what doesn't, just like all of the other trainers who write the books that you read have done. Like I stated before, 12 years, and the methods I've been using have proved successful time and time again. I am fortunate to not have to advertise in Dallas, I'd say 75% of my business comes from word of mouth referrals, and people who have followed me through the years during times when I worked for other businesses, until I started my own. If I were to come across a dog that my methods did not work for, I'd be happy to move on and try something new, and on occasion, that happens. I've yet to have a client tell me that their problems with their dogs were not fixed when they followed my advice properly. I'm not saying that your method doesn't work. I'm saying I like my dogs trained a little differently, and the method I use works for me, and for my clients.

[ZenTrainer]

LOL! Yes, I would not say I have any certain method except that I use an ethological approach to dog training.
I used to be a CGC Evaluator but my clients aren't interested in that - they just want happy companion dogs.
It could be because I live in a college town, Vanderbilt, McHarry, Fisk, TSU and UT, that my clients often ask me to cite sources so I better have them ready.
I have heard from some other APDT trainers that they are never asked for sources. Some are, I think it's a regional thing.
I train a lot of researchers dogs also (I think because of Vanderbilt) so they really out me through the ringer.
I love the challange.
When they see that the dogs I train are off leash, out of crates, happily chewing on appropriate things and not being destructive, they let go of the need for written research and start to trust that maybe given the thousands of dogs I've trained and the hundreds I've boarded that I do know what I'm talking about.
I wouldn't expect them to give me that trust right away though, even though my referrals come from vets.
I check out the professionals I hire and ask them a lot of questions, so I don't mind answering, in fact I welcome it.
There are very few books that I have on my "Must Read" list for clients but "The New Work of Dogs" by Jon Katz is one of them.
It's important for people to realize that dogs need a job. That job could be herding sheep, accompanying me to work or to stay at home and chew on bones, but they all need a job!

[DiggityDogs]

Once again, It seems like you are the one 'misinterpreting, and misunderstanding' email. I said "why would I need to cite a source that states that chewing is abnormal, BECAUSE I NEVER SAID THAT. I also said nothing about not ever needing to cite sources, although very few of my clients ask. The fact that you've trained researchers dogs doesn't impress me. I've trained lawyers dogs, including the assistant DA of dallas, I've worked with the mexican consulate, a couple of pro golfers, as well as several local professors, and as of today have been invited to speak to a psychology class. (I live close to SMU, UTD, UNT, and UTSW). I could care less what the people do that hire me. That doesn't change the fact that my methods still work. You don't need a PhD to train dogs, you just have to know what you're doing.

[redwhitenblue]

hmmm yes i would have to agree that chewing can be abnormal. I am nto saying that chewing is abnormal but excessive amounts of chewing would be abnormal according to most of the trainers i have talked to. i dont know if it is true but i hope they stop it soon... :D hehehe... thanks guys who knows... they are doing better since i play with them quit often. maybe it is just boredom who really kn ows lol we will see

[Dogwise]

I'm not sure why you would want to "teach a dog not to chew on things when he is bored." I think it's the perfect thing for a dog to do when they are bored. I find chewing to be non negotiable. Dogs chew. The only thing I can control is what they chew. So they have access to great chewing toys at all times, especially the hard white sterilized bones. Chewing is a great way to release nervous energy.
Dobe's have a lot of energy. The "run five miles a day" kind of energy, so limiting them to only interactive toys seems like it would be a full time job to interact with them.
I have to go to work everyday, sadly, so they have to learn to entertain themselves and chewing on appropriate items is a great way to accomplish this.

Hum, well this is interesting. Dogs chew? Yep they sure do, adult dogs chew to get rid of energy, they also dig, some bark non stop, some pace, they can develope all kinds of bad habbits to get rid of energy. That's why it's up to the human to give them the constructive exercise they need to get rid of this energy, so they don't look for destructive ways to get rid of it out of frustration. Having to work is no excuse for not giving a dog the exercise it needs. People choose dogs not the other way around, and perhaps people should think energy level and not breed when choosing their dog. I own my own business and work my butt off, and my dogs still get a 4 mile walk 5 to 6 days a week in the morning. I don't jump out of bed at 5 am cheering, yay! a five mile walk! I do it because my dogs needs it. Chewing cannot and should not replace something so important as a walk to and for a dog. Dogs also tear things up out of frustration from built up energy, should that be "nongotiable as well. And not all Dobs, GSD, rotties, Pits, are high energy dogs. Infact in one little of oh say labs even, you can have everthing from low to high energy dogs.

Talk to some vets about what constant chewing of hard objects does to their enamel.

[Dogwise]

Well, no I have never tried the method of not allowing a dog to chew. I have never read anywhere that it is abnormal for an adult dog to chew. Can you cite a source that says this?

Why would someone feel the nedd to cite a source? And I'll guaranty for each "source" you can site, I can find one to contradict it. It's a waste of time.

My understanding is that dogs chew for a variety of reasons.
Roger Abrantes calls it a relaxing activity. (I think many dogs do chew when they are nervous.)
April Frost says. "Chewing is a normal dog pastime"
Paul Owens talks about teaching your dog what to chew and what not to chew.
Terry Ryan says "It's natural, dog's chew".

Ok, and have you ever read the writing of "acclaimed animal behavioist" Paul Loed and Suzanne Hlavacek in their book Smarter than you Think. As with most books while they may have a few good tips (ones you can find anywhere else) the rest is pure nonsince.

I don't leave dogs in crates for their whole lives, only until they are adults and are ready to handle the responsibility of being out of the crate. (Much the same as I wouldn't leave a 7 year old child home alone - they are not developmentally ready.)

That I agree with.

While they are in the crate (which is very few hours at my house) they have bones to chew for something to do.

Now are we talking adult dogs here or pups? Because I'm under the impression from what you've said that you don't kennel adult dogs. I certainy hope that this isn't the kind of advise your giving to people on your radio show. Dog owners take on a responsiblity when they get a dog, and it is up to them to fulfill their dogs needs. And part of fulfilling a dogs needs is *exercise*. Give them that and they'll spend most their time sleeping and resting while your gone. Not only that but there's little games you can set up to give them thins to do while your gone. Other than mindless chewing.

There are also bones available at all times inside and out as well as other toys. For the whole of their lives.

At all times??? Even at night while they should be sleeping? That IMO is definitely the wrong thing to do. By age 8 weeks you can and should teach pups night is for skeeping.

A wide variety of toys should be offered so they don't get bored. They can also be rotated (some put away while others are brought out.)

Dogs only get bored when owners don't fulfill their needs. Also part of natural life is being bored some times.

It's quite easy to teach a dog what is appropriate to chew on and what is not.

You are absolutely right.

Any of the above mentioned authors as well as many others spell it out in their books.

again as I stated before, just because someone has written a book, doesn't mean they actually know what they talking about, nor that their giving good advise. After all anyone can write a book.

It's important to remember though that just because you are teaching it doesn't mean the dog has mastered it - that come with age and maturity.
And to remember that these dogs we all have were bred for certain jobs - not to be house pets and sit around all day so rechanneling that energy into appropriate chewing is a great way to occupy them if they are not out working sheep etc. (Read Jon Katz "The New Work Of Dogs" for more on this.)
I have never felt that questioning someone's methods was "fighting". I've been training dogs professionally for 14 years now. I am almost always delighted when someone guestions my methods. It keeps me on my toes and it means they are discerning pet owners.

Actually many breeds today where breed for some type of job hundreds of years ago so that may or may not have any relevance today. Just the as being decedents of wolves haves only *some* relevance as to the behavior of our dogs today. Humans need to take responsibilty if they're going to get a dog and fulfill their needs. that means helping them to deal with their energy in a constuctive way. I have been working with dogs for some 25 years, I spent time studying wild and feral dogs, dogs behavior, I spent 15 years working with scent detection K9's, work with rescue groups, and I own my own business doing behavior work with dogs.

i realize that this is the internet and any can claim they di this or that, but hey that's just the way it is. I don't give out my personal informatiom over the net, only because of all the nuts out there. and i'm not concerned as to whether or not someone believes me. So there it is. I'm don't mean to offend anyone and of course as with all of us here, these are simply my opinions.

[Dogwise]

Well, no I have never tried the method of not allowing a dog to chew. I have never read anywhere that it is abnormal for an adult dog to chew. Can you cite a source that says this?

Why would someone feel the need to cite a source? And I'll guaranty for each "source" you can site, I can find one to contradict it. It's a waste of time.

My understanding is that dogs chew for a variety of reasons.
Roger Abrantes calls it a relaxing activity. (I think many dogs do chew when they are nervous.)
April Frost says. "Chewing is a normal dog pastime"
Paul Owens talks about teaching your dog what to chew and what not to chew.
Terry Ryan says "It's natural, dog's chew".

Ok, and have you ever read the writing of "acclaimed animal behavioist" Paul Loed and Suzanne Hlavacek in their book Smarter than you Think. As with most books while they may have a few good tips (ones you can find anywhere else) the rest is pure nonsince.

I don't leave dogs in crates for their whole lives, only until they are adults and are ready to handle the responsibility of being out of the crate. (Much the same as I wouldn't leave a 7 year old child home alone - they are not developmentally ready.)

That I agree with.

While they are in the crate (which is very few hours at my house) they have bones to chew for something to do.

Now are we talking adult dogs here or pups? Because I'm under the impression from what you've said that you don't kennel adult dogs. I certainy hope that this isn't the kind of advise your giving to people on your radio show. Dog owners take on a responsiblity when they get a dog, and it is up to them to fulfill their dogs needs. And part of fulfilling a dogs needs is *exercise*. Give them that and they'll spend most their time sleeping and resting while your gone. Not only that but there's little games you can set up to give them thins to do while your gone. Other than mindless chewing.

There are also bones available at all times inside and out as well as other toys. For the whole of their lives.

At all times??? Even at night while they should be sleeping? That IMO is definitely the wrong thing to do. By age 8 weeks you can and should teach pups night is for skeeping.

A wide variety of toys should be offered so they don't get bored. They can also be rotated (some put away while others are brought out.)

Dogs only get bored when owners don't fulfill their needs. Also part of natural life is being bored some times.

It's quite easy to teach a dog what is appropriate to chew on and what is not.

You are absolutely right.

Any of the above mentioned authors as well as many others spell it out in their books.

again as I stated before, just because someone has written a book, doesn't mean they actually know what they talking about, nor that their giving good advise. After all anyone can write a book.

It's important to remember though that just because you are teaching it doesn't mean the dog has mastered it - that come with age and maturity.
And to remember that these dogs we all have were bred for certain jobs - not to be house pets and sit around all day so rechanneling that energy into appropriate chewing is a great way to occupy them if they are not out working sheep etc. (Read Jon Katz "The New Work Of Dogs" for more on this.)
I have never felt that questioning someone's methods was "fighting". I've been training dogs professionally for 14 years now. I am almost always delighted when someone guestions my methods. It keeps me on my toes and it means they are discerning pet owners.

Actually many breeds today where breed for some type of job hundreds of years ago so that may or may not have any relevance today. Just the as being decedents of wolves haves only *some* relevance as to the behavior of our dogs today. Humans need to take responsibilty if they're going to get a dog and fulfill their needs. that means helping them to deal with their energy in a constuctive way. I have been working with dogs for some 25 years, I spent time studying wild and feral dogs, dogs behavior, I spent 15 years working with scent detection K9's, work with rescue groups, and I own my own business doing behavior work with dogs.

i realize that this is the internet and any can claim they di this or that, but hey that's just the way it is. I don't give out my personal informatiom over the net, only because of all the nuts out there. and i'm not concerned as to whether or not someone believes me. So there it is. I'm don't mean to offend anyone and of course as with all of us here, these are simply my opinions.

[redwhitenblue]

i would agree dogwise. I was thinking an hour a day of full running was enough for these kids but really they need more than that... they need a hour of play time alone each and an hour together playing so they learn to play together as well... so all in all they need each almost three to four hours play time at this age it seems right now...

they do chew and they know what is okay to chew on and what isnt... and when they are getting the proper play time and care time then they are not chewingon any and everything... i have learned they wont chew on just anything if they are getting everything in their diet...

they chew more when they arent getting the missing li nk like normal.... they have more irritability and bored tendencies... it is amazing how a good balanced diet helps their lives... and lots of running.. and playing.... hehehe...

[DiggityDogs]

I feel ya red- sometimes I'll take Daniel to my friends house who owns 10 acres fenced, and he'll run for 2 hours straight! For the most part, though, at his age, he's pretty laid back. Zen said, 'dobermans are puppies until they're 3', but I find that to only be physically. They do a little filling out between the ages of 2 and 3. Mentally, I think they mature much faster than most of the other breeds I've worked with. You won't have to worry about losing your newspapers forever!

[Dogwise]

Well DD I was hoping there would be an interesting debate with Zen seeing how she has her "own" radio show an all, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Intresting.

[DiggityDogs]

guess not...

[redwhitenblue]

ye... i hope they stop soon... plus i noticed while my husband and i were having hard times here at home they were acting out more... now that things have settled down adn we are doing great they seem much better... thanks so much if you have any other ideas please let me know :D hugs


I feel ya red- sometimes I'll take Daniel to my friends house who owns 10 acres fenced, and he'll run for 2 hours straight! For the most part, though, at his age, he's pretty laid back. Zen said, 'dobermans are puppies until they're 3', but I find that to only be physically. They do a little filling out between the ages of 2 and 3. Mentally, I think they mature much faster than most of the other breeds I've worked with. You won't have to worry about losing your newspapers forever!

[DiggityDogs]

Have you tried giving them stuffed Kong toys? I put a handful of their dog food inside, then a layer of peanut butter or that kong stuffin paste, and then cram a dog buscuit in the end so they REALLY have to work to get the food out- It usually keeps my guys busy for 30 minutes or so, and when they're done I pick them up and wash them out so they don't get moldy inside (YUK!) It's a good distraction for a hungry dobe! In the summer, you can plug up the small hole with a bit of peanut butter and put it small side down in a glass and fill it with broth and freeze it- it makes for a tasty cold treat ;)

[redwhitenblue]

I havent and he loves those kongs too... will try it on tuesday when i go back towork to get one... thanks DD... ill try it :D

ive also found that play catch with prince for twenty minutes and hugging on tasneem and allowing her to love on me or half an hour in the evening makes them much better :D

Have you tried giving them stuffed Kong toys? I put a handful of their dog food inside, then a layer of peanut butter or that kong stuffin paste, and then cram a dog buscuit in the end so they REALLY have to work to get the food out- It usually keeps my guys busy for 30 minutes or so, and when they're done I pick them up and wash them out so they don't get moldy inside (YUK!) It's a good distraction for a hungry dobe! In the summer, you can plug up the small hole with a bit of peanut butter and put it small side down in a glass and fill it with broth and freeze it- it makes for a tasty cold treat ;)

[Dogwise]

Regardless of what other activities we provide for our dogs, the main one should be walking them.