Raw Feeders?

[scarfy]

Hi. I'm writing an article about Raw Feeding. I was wondering if anyone could tell me; Why they feed Raw, How they decided to feed Raw, and What if any sources did you use to come to this decision?

If you could provide me with any studies you may know of or websites I would appreciate it.

I apologize if this has been covered in other threads; I don't really have the time to dig through them to see if someone may have answered my question already. I have a deadline.

Thanks in advance!

[poketmouse]

I've been feeding my 1 1/2 yr old GSP mix pup a raw prey-model diet since he was 9 weeks old. I did a lot of research to find "the perfect kibble" but kept coming up with the answer that raw was best. I was skeptical at first and thought I could never do it on my own, but I came around. Raw is the most biologically appropriate, high quality food I can offer. Tearing and ripping provides both dental and emotional stimulation, keeping the teeth and gums clean and healthy.

There were two books that were very helpful to me in deciding to feed raw, "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health" and "Work Wonders" both by Tom Lonsdale. You can download a free copy of the books on www.rawmeatybones.com

There is also a yahoo group that has been incredibly helpful for the actual "hows" of raw feeding. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding
There are literally thousands of people on the list, and questions of all kind are answered there.

Other sites I like are
http://www.rawlearning.com
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

Hope that helps you!

[scarfy]

Andrea -- Thanks for all the links. Another question if you don't mind. How does your vet feel about you raw feeding?

I've noticed just in getting started with this that a great many "avid" raw feeders will say that if your vet doesn't approve of the raw diet it's only because they are out to sell whatever dog food (kibble) they have a "deal" with. Do you also feel this way?

I'm trying to paint a good picture on both spectrums of dog food and raw foods.

Thanks again for your input!

[poketmouse]

Actually, my vet is very supportive of a proper raw diet. She doesn't advocate a raw diet to her clients because she believes it isn't for everyone. I don't think a vet would ever discount a healthy alternative to kibble just because the kibble people offered them money, but I do think that a lot of the nutrition education in vet schools is unfortunately funded by kibble companies, so they might not get the whole story. My vet has done a lot of research after she started practicing, and that is when she was educated about raw feeding.

If I didn't have a vet that approved of the diet, I don't know that it would be much of a problem. My dogs rarely go into the vet, except for the annual checkup, and if something happens to bring us in, it rarely relates to diet at all. However, there are some vets that blame a raw diet for everything, no matter what. If I had a vet like that, I'm sure I would change to someone else.

[scarfy]

Thanks for being so informative! I really appreciate it!

[DiBA DoG]

I had my Siberian male on a raw diet for the last 6 months of his life and will only go raw, raw, raw with any future new dogs.
He responded really well to it - he was having severe diahrea problems - the reason for switching him from kibble, to home cooked, to complete raw. I was guided by a fabulous lady who does dog rehabilitation and is she herself a "raw foodist" - one step further from vegitarian (as I understand it).

I noticed that in your post you had a "deadline" so if you still need info I would be happy to write in detail what/how I prepared Chinook's food .. or she might via email ..
- Dianne

[furbabymom]

I dont feed RAW yet, but I have been researching it and I found www.rawdogranch.com (http://www.rawdogranch.com) to be a great source of info.

[blue lacy lover]

i know this sounds pretty dumb, but what is raw feeding? i mean is that all you feed them? i have never heard of this befor, & again i know that this is a pretty dumb Question!!

[poketmouse]

Don't feel dumb, I had never heard of it before I got my GSP pup. Basically, raw feeding treats your dog like the carnivore they are, and feeds them what they were designed to eat. There are several different schools of thought when it comes to raw feeding, and I guess to each his own. One group believes that dogs are omnivores and requires that vegetables are ground into a soupy mash to be included in the dog's diet. This group also feeds primarily ground foods and offers supplements for the dog (this omnivore/ground food way of thinking is often refered to as BARF).

I feed my dogs according to a more basic way of feeding. I try to feed whole prey when I can (whole rabbits or chickens, etc), but since I can't most of the time, I try to make a "frankenprey" and mimick a whole prey animal with what animal parts I can easily find. Most all of the food I feed comes from grocery stores, only a few things aren't human grade. It's basically meat(including skin, fur, tendon, cartilage), meaty bones, and organs.

It seems complicated, and it was kind of hard to get used to things at the beginning, but it becomes really fun and second nature once you get the hang of it. Check out some of the links I provided earlier if you want to learn more.

[blue lacy lover]

thanks! it is much more clear now.

[MelissaCato]

I've been feeding BARF/RAW for about 16 years now for both cats and dogs.
I've never had any health problems related to allergies, bowels, heart, kidneys, liver or eyes. My oldest dog of 16 years was a GSD whom I put to sleep this past summer due to mobility. All 16 years he was fed RAW/BARF. Active all his life till the last 2 years. :(

[Redyre_Rotties]

What exactly do you feed, Melissa?

What plan do you follow?

Do you use grains, and why or why not?

How much of your diet is RMBs?

Do you have a good supplier in your area? I"m lucky to have a great one nearby me where I buy ground meats in 5 lb tubes, and also a couple different kinds of RMBs for pretty good prices.

What do you find you are averaging per dog per month these days?

[Redyre_Rotties]

Hi. I'm writing an article about Raw Feeding. I was wondering if anyone could tell me;

Why they feed Raw,

Because after research and experience I feel it is the best for my dogs.

How they decided to feed Raw, and What if any sources did you use to come to this decision?

In the late 80s I had a dog with severe food allergies. He began my research and collection of information on diets in dogs. I went from home cooked rapidly to part and then all raw (by 1993). I got most of my eduation from online sources including chat rooms, web sites, books (Give Your Dog A Bone by Ian Billinghurst, DVM, The Ultimate Diet by Kymythy Schultze, Natural Health for Dogs and Cats by Pitcairn), magazine articles, and any other information on the subject I could find.


If you could provide me with any studies you may know of or websites I would appreciate it.

I apologize if this has been covered in other threads; I don't really have the time to dig through them to see if someone may have answered my question already. I have a deadline.

Thanks in advance!

As far as I know there are no studies. (Who is going to fund a study that would likely discredit most of the commerical pet food industry).

Here is a website I really enjoy tho.

http://www.rawlearning.com

[MelissaCato]

What exactly do you feed, Melissa?

What plan do you follow?

Do you use grains, and why or why not?

How much of your diet is RMBs?

Do you have a good supplier in your area? I"m lucky to have a great one nearby me where I buy ground meats in 5 lb tubes, and also a couple different kinds of RMBs for pretty good prices.

What do you find you are averaging per dog per month these days?

I make my own dog food, beings I live on a farm with cattle and chickens it's easy for me to produce my own food. I purchase bulk veggies stubs/kelp for the broth at other local farms.

Here's how I make kibbles.

Chicken, all meat, organs (except intestines/bladder/stomach) cut into chunks.

Cattle, all meat, organs (except intestines/bladder/stomach) cut into chunks. The knuckles I keep too, I put them in the smoke house.

All the above is mixed together with veggies Vitamin E/Vitamin C/flaxseed broth and dehydrated till solid. (about 16 hours) 15-20 chickens and a side of beef lasts about 3 months for my 3 dogs. Nemos can eat 5-6 pounds a day alone depending on his activities. Sara about 1-2 pounds and Granduer maybe 3-4. All in all they eat a good 12 pounds a day. They work 14-16 hours a day though on the farm. I like to keep bowls full on account of activities.

All the bones are ground up and mixed with bacon drippings till good and paste. The paste we put into an old homeade calking gun, make strips about 6 inches, then put in the smoker. Of all the things I've used to make homeade bones, I've found this is the best. They have the texture of a dentabone. I get 2 trash cans full of bones each batch, and a few times a year I have a open house and people buy them.
The chicken and cattle after finished, I store in large plastic trash cans with lids, each batch is about 4-5 trash cans full.

I don't use grains. Well, except for rice flour in the gravy every now and again.

RMB for the kibble is 100% The bones are ground to a paste with bacon drippin's and also 100% edible after dehydrated. So, you could say my dogs eat every part of the animal minus intestines/bladder/stomach. Those are what produces cancers. JMO.

Ahhh I dunno, if I had to say how much it would cost me to feed if bought in a store, lets say Nemos because he eats the most, and the prices in my area compaired with my feed... I'd say about 240.00 a month without sales. You can't even buy a side of Angus for that in a store. I dunno though, the only meat I buy in a store is fresh fish.

What are you feeding?

[Redyre_Rotties]

I make my own dog food, beings I live on a farm with cattle and chickens it's easy for me to produce my own food. I purchase bulk veggies stubs/kelp for the broth at other local farms.

Here's how I make kibbles.

A basic fundamental of feeding a raw food diet for most people is that they make their own food for their dogs.

Kibble is cooked extruded dried food. It has nothing to do with Raw Feeding.


Chicken, all meat, organs (except intestines/bladder/stomach) cut into chunks.

Cattle, all meat, organs (except intestines/bladder/stomach) cut into chunks. The knuckles I keep too, I put them in the smoke house.

All the above is mixed together with veggies Vitamin E/Vitamin C/flaxseed broth and dehydrated till solid. (about 16 hours) 15-20 chickens and a side of beef lasts about 3 months for my 3 dogs. Nemos can eat 5-6 pounds a day alone depending on his activities. Sara about 1-2 pounds and Granduer maybe 3-4. All in all they eat a good 12 pounds a day. They work 14-16 hours a day though on the farm. I like to keep bowls full on account of activities.

Dehydrated is not a Raw Food Diet. Amazing also the amount of food your dogs are eating of this dehydrated mix. My hardest working adult Rottweiler, who is about 96 lbs, eats only about 2 lbs of food per day. The most I've seen any dog eat was a young growing male I had who ate up to 4 lbs per day at one point. My 3 adult Rottweilers eat 5 lbs of meat per day. The 3 puppies eat about 2.5 more.


All the bones are ground up and mixed with bacon drippings till good and paste. The paste we put into an old homeade calking gun, make strips about 6 inches, then put in the smoker. Of all the things I've used to make homeade bones, I've found this is the best. They have the texture of a dentabone. I get 2 trash cans full of bones each batch, and a few times a year I have a open house and people buy them.
The chicken and cattle after finished, I store in large plastic trash cans with lids, each batch is about 4-5 trash cans full.

I don't use grains. Well, except for rice flour in the gravy every now and again.

RMB for the kibble is 100% The bones are ground to a paste with bacon drippin's and also 100% edible after dehydrated. So, you could say my dogs eat every part of the animal minus intestines/bladder/stomach. Those are what produces cancers. JMO.

The RMB is 100%? Do you mean as a "raw feeder" you don't know what the acronym RMB stands for? Raw Meaty Bones?

Ahhh I dunno, if I had to say how much it would cost me to feed if bought in a store, lets say Nemos because he eats the most, and the prices in my area compaired with my feed... I'd say about 240.00 a month without sales. You can't even buy a side of Angus for that in a store. I dunno though, the only meat I buy in a store is fresh fish.

What are you feeding?

[MelissaCato]

Hummm yes I know what RMB is, I dunno what to tell ya RR, that's what I do and have been doing. It's not commercial dog food.

Also RR, your dogs don't compare to mine with work. You have show dogs, I have dogs that run upward of 8-11 miles a day, and that's a very slow day.
I have a mile track around my property to train my horses, the dogs follow everytime, plus farm work. So there's no comparison between my dogs and your dogs with eating habits and energies.

If it's not Biologically Appropriate Raw Food then what is it?

[Redyre_Rotties]

How does any dog consume 5 to 6 POUNDS of dehydrated food? That would equal at least double that amount in fresh food. Any experienced raw feeder would find what Melissa Cato has written to be outlandish. It is completely out of bounds where a raw diet is concerned. Nice story, tho. Thanks for sharing.

To keep this on track, here is what my dogs eat:

Variety is important in any raw diet. My dogs eat beef and beef organ meat, beef bones, chicken in all forms, ground turkey ( I do stay away from turkey bones, even raw ones) pork feet, neck bones and organ meat, and occasionally rabbit, lamb, wild game, and fish.All meats are fed completely and absolutely raw except for some canned fish, or small amounts of cooked meat that comes off our own plates.

A typical meal for an adult would include about 1.5 lbs of muscle meat, and about the same of RMBs.

I use very little grains except on growing youth dogs and bitches who are pregnant or lactating. The growing boys get oats, brown rice, and pasta daily with their meats. By the time their rapid growth is finishing up around 10 months, I will reduce their grains, and by a year of age they will be on the same schedule as the adults. The adult girls get grains only on an incidental basis, maybe once a week.

Dogs get eggs, plain yoghurt, cottage cheese, and fresh fruits and vegetables from time to time.

Supplements I use include:

Ester C
organic flax seed oil (I use only the kind in the brown bottle that you keep in the refrigerator, as flax seed oil is very fragile and is ruined when it is heated)
Raw Organic Apple Cider Vinegar

I use supplements from Nature's Farmacy on all the dogs.

DogZyme's Ultimate Vitamin
DogZyme's KA Calcium (this is specially designed for raw diets to balance any meat that is fed without bone....1/8 tsp to each cup of meat that does not have bone)
DogZyme's PhytoFlex CCM+ bone and joint supplement

Raw diets are a very good thing for almost all dogs, however, any raw diet MUST be planned carefully. A haphazard poorly constructed raw diet, or one that does not address the minerals necessary to balance any meat fed without bone can be DISASTROUS to the dog. Even much worse than the worst commercial food you can buy.

If you think a raw diet might be best for your dog, please do your research beforehand. A good site that I like very much that has lots of great info is http://www.rawlearning.com

[MelissaCato]

RR, do you think feeding a race horse 2-3 scoops (2 3/4 lbs per scoop) 2 times a day is outlandish concidering the average barn horse is 1/2 a coffee can twice a day? :rolleyes:
Apparently you know best.

If it's not Biologically Appropriate Raw Food then what is it?

[poketmouse]

If it's not Biologically Appropriate Raw Food then what is it?

Though dehydrated food isn't exactly cooked, it certainly shouldn't be considered raw, IMHO. But your homemade food is definitely made of higher quality ingredients than most commercial kibbles, and you know for certain what is going into your dogs. Do you find that your dogs drink a lot of water with the dehydrated foods or is it about the same that dogs drink when eating regular kibble?

Andrea

[blue lacy lover]

i dont know much about raw feeding for dogs but that sounds like a LOT of food Melissa. At work we feed the growing tigers over 20 pounds of meat each day. and they are over 600-700 pounds! so it might just be me but 6 pounds of food sounds a little much for even a very large dog.

please corect me if i am wrong.

[MelissaCato]

Nemos eats alot of food .. he always did. I can feed him 3 full scoops every morning and gone by evening. Sara gets a scoop and granduer 2, both those are gone by evening also. I use the 2 3/4 lbs scoopers like for my horses.

Yes they drink alot of water/milk mostly because they are running around constantly all day, they can do a 3 mile train with me and 3 horses and drink, eat some and go right back at it for another 3. I've never seen them sick. They usually drink and eat some while I tack a horse too.

My GSD in his younger days ate like Nemos for a about 5-6 years then cut back.

I cannot correct you, I can just tell you what happens here.

I can only assume, because the protn level in all dogs are normal Sara (6.2) Granduer (7.1) and Nemos (8.4), that it's all digestible energies. I do notice with my food that the WBC count is higher in all 3 dogs at 16x and the RBC are off the wall at 26% compared to average dogs on commercial foods. Once I graduate school, I'll be able to do my own tests on my dogs eating habits, energies and levels for documents.

I always called it RAW/BARF. My teachers at school categorize it as Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, I guess if you compare it to commercial food it would be. Sorry for the confusion.

[ClarkFarm]

I choose not to feed raw so I haven't participated in this thread but I can say that I know what MelissaCato meant when referring to race horses. I imagine a dog equivalent to such routine exercise would require much more food than the normal pet with average daily exercise, though I'm not about to speculate off-hand on that amount of increase.
I was able to meet with an owner of race horses local to me and I was amazed to see the amount of feed his horses get. It is staggering!

[Redyre_Rotties]

Nemos eats alot of food .. he always did. I can feed him 3 full scoops every morning and gone by evening. Sara gets a scoop and granduer 2, both those are gone by evening also. I use the 2 3/4 lbs scoopers like for my horses.

Yes they drink alot of water/milk mostly because they are running around constantly all day, they can do a 3 mile train with me and 3 horses and drink, eat some and go right back at it for another 3. I've never seen them sick. They usually drink and eat some while I tack a horse too.

My GSD in his younger days ate like Nemos for a about 5-6 years then cut back.

I cannot correct you, I can just tell you what happens here.

I can only assume, because the protn level in all dogs are normal Sara (6.2) Granduer (7.1) and Nemos (8.4), that it's all digestible energies. I do notice with my food that the WBC count is higher in all 3 dogs at 16x and the RBC are off the wall at 26% compared to average dogs on commercial foods. Once I graduate school, I'll be able to do my own tests on my dogs eating habits, energies and levels for documents.

I always called it RAW/BARF. My teachers at school categorize it as Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, I guess if you compare it to commercial food it would be. Sorry for the confusion.


What school?

What is 16X re the WBC? 16,000? Anything from 6,000 to 17,000 per microliter is normal in a dog, so if you mean 16,000 that would not be considered high. That is in the normal range.

How do you determine the protein levels you quoted above? What are "digestible energies?"

How do you measure a percentage of Red Blood Cells? Are you talking about Hematocrit, or PCV? If so, then 26% is low. Are you talking about an actual RBC COUNT? If so, that is not measured in a percentage form.

Or maybe you were talking about Hemoglobin? Where normal values for a dog fall between 14-20 grams per deciliter?

Raw food is not dried, dehydrated, or dolloped out in a scoop. It is real food. Raw, and in as natural a form as possible.

What teachers, and what school?

[blue lacy lover]

well if that is what works for YOUR dogs thats all that matters.

[MelissaCato]

What school?

What is 16X re the WBC? 16,000? Anything from 6,000 to 17,000 per microliter is normal in a dog, so if you mean 16,000 that would not be considered high. That is in the normal range.

How do you determine the protein levels you quoted above? What are "digestible energies?"

How do you measure a percentage of Red Blood Cells? Are you talking about Hematocrit, or PCV? If so, then 26% is low. Are you talking about an actual RBC COUNT? If so, that is not measured in a percentage form.

Or maybe you were talking about Hemoglobin? Where normal values for a dog fall between 14-20 grams per deciliter?

Raw food is not dried, dehydrated, or dolloped out in a scoop. It is real food. Raw, and in as natural a form as possible.

What teachers, and what school?

Your details might sound educated to the normal poster ... but it's clear you only appear to be. The way you push your knowlegde on people, is clearly nothing but google and it seems to be only one of hundreds of references.
FYI .. each lab or in house clinic sets their own normal levels for his patients based on the equipment used. It's up to the analyzer to group each chem in a "normal" range. All the websites you see with this documented came from a physical being having to calculate to come to a "normal" conclusion. So, don't base your opinion on someone elses dog test online. :rolleyes:

How do I know the protein levels in my dogs? albumin and globulin test with ratio measurements which also concluded my dogs are well hydrated with good electrolyte balance.

Digestible energy is just a simple word relating to glycolytic and oxidative energy. I don't like useing HL terms unless I have to. I do that enough on demand. It's simply food consumed that doesn't store in the body also know as RSD and can be calculated by "in vitro" which I prefer or CV but I find that's about 1.9 off all levels. I'm sure you have an opposing thought on that too. :rolleyes:
No I wasn't talking about hemoG.

Sorry for the confusion on RAW/BARF ... I'll know not to not mention it.

I posted this link on the student forum ... for a heads up on your intentions with me once again concerning my education. Since the last fiasco with you and your cronies ... there has been revisions governing certain private practices. Thank you.

[Redyre_Rotties]

More doublespeak, Melissa?

What cronies do you refer to? I have never had any contact with you beyond some posts on internet bulletin boards. Are you insinuating otherwise?

I have a 30 year education in dogs. Not any "appearance" of education. Should we go back to your plagiariazing and directly quoting TO ME from an article that I WROTE? Should we talk about your experience with using GAMMA RAYS on animals? How about your mother and her organ transplants from animals to humans? Your posting of stolen photographs claiming the dogs as your own? Your posting of your crotch shots as you do cartwheels drunk on tequila? Do I need to continue?

I only responded to your post because it could be very misleading to anyone who is really looking for information on raw food diets for dogs.

I am so sorry I have fed into your pathological need for attention.

I'm done.

[MelissaCato]

Hummmm lies, ya I remember you said I did that, what was it a whole 7 words I used in 1 sentence you apparently wrote online in 2. :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting to be sued, RR. Remember you BS'd for 6 pages how you were gonna sock it to me.

Of course your done, till the next meetup with new faces.