looking for 1st hand breed info...

[redridinghood1313]

I've been considering getting a second dog (actually before I got the 1st). Given the exceedingly long amount of time and work it took to find a suitable mixed breed puppy from the shelter/rescue system, I've been considering a purebred.
Namely Kerry Blue Terriers and Wheaton Terriers. I've also been giving some consideration to breeding in the future.
I've never had a purebred before and, while the standards for both sound absolutely lovely, how close to the standard are purebreds anyway (I've been seeing some pathetic versions of more popular breeds and am concerned)? Does anyone here breed or keep Wheatons or Kerrys?
Also, I'd want to make sure that the animals--as lovely as they sound--would fit well into our family and live nicely with our current dog. I know terriers can be...dog intolerant. Our current is a terrier mix that, while she has many other terrier qualities, thankfully loves other dogs. I'd like that tiny bit of straying from the written standard.

[StarWhisper]

I've been considering getting a second dog (actually before I got the 1st). Given the exceedingly long amount of time and work it took to find a suitable mixed breed puppy from the shelter/rescue system, I've been considering a purebred.
Namely Kerry Blue Terriers and Wheaton Terriers. I've also been giving some consideration to breeding in the future.

I don't really know anything personally about Kerry's or Wheatons since they are not my breed but as I am sure you know breeding is a difficult path. If you are serious about breeding please take the time to find a respected mentor in your breed who will take the time to properly guide you down this path.

I've never had a purebred before and, while the standards for both sound absolutely lovely, how close to the standard are purebreds anyway (I've been seeing some pathetic versions of more popular breeds and am concerned)?

How close to the standards are purebreds? It depends on the dog. Some dogs are better breed representatives than others, but all dogs (even the Best In Show winner at Westminster has flaws there is no such thing as the "perfect dog".

Sadly you will see horrid breed examples everyday thanks to byb's and pm'ers which is why it is so important that breeding is done by those with the highest of ethics that will truly do their breed justice.

Does anyone here breed or keep Wheatons or Kerrys?

I do not sorry, but I will keep my eyes and ears open for contacts that may be able to help you.

Also, I'd want to make sure that the animals--as lovely as they sound--would fit well into our family and live nicely with our current dog. I know terriers can be...dog intolerant. Our current is a terrier mix that, while she has many other terrier qualities, thankfully loves other dogs. I'd like that tiny bit of straying from the written standard.

A good breeder is going to breed to the standard and that means they will breed for that dynamic terrier personality, your best bet is to speak with a breeder and tell them that you are interested in these breeds but do have some concerns.

A reputable breeder will be more than happy to answer your questions about their breeding program, their dogs, or their breed in general.

[redridinghood1313]

Thanks Star,
I've been trying to contact some people in the local breed clubs, particularly those who have themselves listed as "no longer breeds, but will mentor" and haven't gotten responses, or have gotten responses that were...um, non-informational to put it nicely.
I am prepared for the work of breeding and showing and have a true love of dogs. Until this one, all of my pets have been "special needs", so I'm used to the extra work. I think it would be nice to have the work be for somethign so joyous as new puppies.

[StarWhisper]

Thanks Star,
I've been trying to contact some people in the local breed clubs, particularly those who have themselves listed as "no longer breeds, but will mentor" and haven't gotten responses, or have gotten responses that were...um, non-informational to put it nicely.

Hi Red, you may want to try the national breed clubs. Here are the websites for both.

United States Kerry Blue Terrier Club (http://www.uskbtc.com/)
Soft Coated Wheaton Terrier Club of America (http://www.scwtca.org/index.asp)

Please remember that serious breed fanciers tend to be very protective of their breeds and may want to ensure you are getting into breeding for the right reasons which is why some of the responses may not have been as informative as you may have liked.

In other words you may have to "prove" yourself and show those in the breed that you are coming to them with the highest of ethics.

May I please ask what approach you are using when you make contact? Perhaps something in the delivery of the message is causing concern.

I am prepared for the work of breeding and showing and have a true love of dogs. Until this one, all of my pets have been "special needs", so I'm used to the extra work. I think it would be nice to have the work be for somethign so joyous as new puppies.

I am glad you understand that breeding and showing is a lot of work. Sadly too many people don't understand just how difficult this path can be. I always say that breeding is a path that very few are truly worthy of walking down.

Also please remember the reward comes not from bringing puppies into the world but from your chosen breed justice by all the hard work, time, and dedication one puts into a responsible breeding program.

Anyone can bring puppies into the world, but not just anyone can do it responsibly. I can't tell you how wonderful I think it is that you are asking about breeding beforehand.

[redridinghood1313]

I would e-mail or leave a voicemail (depending on the contact information given). It would be something along these lines. Actually this is the e-mail, as no voicemail has this much space:
"Hello, my name is XXX. I saw you listed in the Blah-blah club site as a former breeder who had an interest in mentoring. I was wondering if you might answer a few questions I had, as I am very interested in your breed. I am interested in getting a 2nd dog (we currently have a rescued terrier mix ) and would like a purebred. After researching the standards and reading your clubs material on the breed, I feel as if the ??? is the ideal dog for myself and my family. It would be nice to discuss with a former breeder if this is in-fact, true.
I also have been considering possibly showing and breeding. I understand that it is a great deal of work and responsibility. All of my animals (except the current) have been special needs and so I am used to extra work and care for health and well-being of my animals. It would be good to have a mentor who specialized in the breed to discuss breeding and showing (I do have dog and other animal breeders/showers in my family, but no one who is familiar with your breed).
Specifically, I was wondering....
Best Regards,
XXXXX"

[StarWhisper]

Okay I think I may see what the concern may be...

In the first part of your message you are saying that you are basically new to the breed and considering adding one to your family pending the breed is truly a suitable match for your lifestyle...however in the next part you express an interest in showing and breeding.

Automatically the breeder will think, "This person is not familiar with the breed but wants to breed them? What's going on here"

The next question in the breeders head logically would be something like "Why does this person want to breed?"

Concern arises and the breeder may be hesitant to "take you under their wing".

A revisal of your approach may be helpful.

[redridinghood1313]

What do you suggest then?
No I've never had one of the breed before. I've actually never had a purebred dog in my life (just visiting relatives who breed things like rough coated collies or rhodesians--dogs my hubby's allergies can't live with). What I do have experiance owning are crossbreeds--something no breeder in the circles I'm trying to work my way into has anything good to say about and don't really ascribe to a specific standard for me to say I have experiance with it. Plus I have to worry about dog allergies and now a resident dog and her temperment and safety. So I have been doing research and picked two dogs that actually seem very similar to each other, if the literature is to be trusted, and follow most closely my list of traits in an "ideal dog".
My reasons for wanting to breed and show are actually to improve the breed. My personal experiance with breeders (of animals other than wheatons and kerrys), along with some of the reading I've done (even in breeding club literature) has me concerned about the future of dogs. I'm worried about what looks like problems cropping up caused by genetic homogeneity in the breeding population. I'd like to see if I can't help by producing some strong, healthy stock--proving them in competition, and only adding good healthy strong breeding stock into the breeding population. My reasons for wanting to work with a specific breed are for the aforementioned reasons...if I'm going to breed and show a dog, it's going to have to be a part of my family. I have to pick one that fits. Many of the breeds I adore and am familiar with, don't. If I am to stick with dogs I know only...that'd mean I'd become a cockerpoo (or assorted other curly mix) breeder. Mixes have a heterogeneous enough gene pool and don't need me.

[StarWhisper]

I would present myself as someone serious about learning about the breed. Saying you want to breed with limited breed knowledge is just asking breed fanciers to be concerned about your intentions. Try smallers steps...the first goal is learning about the breed so you can be a worthy and responsible pet owner.

Your reasons for wanting to breed (improving the breed) is the right reasons for wanting to do so, but understanding the basics has to come first and the basics start with wanting to learn how to be a responsible educated pet owner.

I hope this information proves helpful to you. I am telling you because I hope it will help you understand (in a small way) how relationships are built in the canine fancy.

I am not a breeder. I as of right now have no intentions to be. GSD's are my heart breed.

I am heavily involved in breed rescue and have many wonderful contacts that are kind enough to help educate me on ethical breeding because they know that I have dedicated myself to the breed and its preservation.

I work hand in hand with reptuable breeders and respected persons in my breed constantly.

My relationships with these breeders did not happen overnight. It took years of me proving myself and demonstrating that I had the breeds best intention at heart.

I first presented myself to GSD owners when I was about fifteen years old. It started off with me explaining I had a GSD when I was a small child and was interested in wanting to learn more because one day I wanted to again share my life with one.

It was not easy at first, my age and inexperience made it difficult at times and I had to really work to prove I was serious about learning.

Time passed and as I earned more respect I was taught more, eventually I asked these same people who taught me the basics to help me understand ethical breeding so I could be more informed and help others be more informed.

They obliged in teaching me because they were able to learned my character. I demonstrated that I was willing to put the time and effort into learning.

Breeding comes way down the line. Start with the basics. As time passes and you earn respect from people in the breed you will be taught more.

[redridinghood1313]

I hate to say it but geeeeezzzz...perhaps you are a better, more forgiving person than I.
Unfortunately, I'm feeling more than a bit put off by some of the local community (with the exception of a few breeders on my flyball team--they are wonderfully informative--just not on the breeds that interest me). I agree that getting to know the breed better is best. I want to learn. This is why I ask questions. If the community is as insular as you seem to indicate, how do people learn? There are no, "KBT" classes at the local community college or university.
Unfortunately, I'm not a 15 year old kid, as you were, and therfore do not feel that I should have to "prove myself" as responsible to have people answer simple questions in their expertise or simply be treated nicely. I'm a 30 year old chemist. I'm used to dealing in a community where if you have questions you just ask an expert and open information sharing is standard practice.
This way of being is very foreign to me. This is going to be a long, hard road.

[StarWhisper]

Red, people learn by showing they want to learn and being active in the breed. The first step to learning is listening and being patient. Information does not always present itself in a way that makes sense at first.

When I was starting out I was given responses that at the time I didn't think were helpful but then I realized just how valuable the information was.

What if I may ask were some of the responses you were given? Is it possible that you may have been given information but at this moment it is unclear so it may not seem helpful?

It is unfair of you to expect these breeders to just want to teach you how to be a breeder and your age or profession has nothing to do with it.

You have to prove yourself worthy of being educated as a breeder because you have come to these people.

You have told them that you want to take their chosen breed and possibly bring more into this world.

It is you asking for their help, not they asking for yours. Help will be given but you have to show them that you are serious about doing right by their breed.

The first impression you made to those in the breed probably was not the best way to present yourself.

Breed fanciers are very protective of their heart breed. It may not seem fair but it is just the way things are.

Breeding is a long and hard road. It will not be easy and there will be many challenges and obstacles in front of you.

[egrdog]

When you contact breeders you shouldn't say, "I don't know much about X breed. I would like to breed X breed." because that automatically sets off red flags in breeders' minds. Also just because you have had dogs that require special (somewhat medical) care does imply that you are responsible, but since your 2 sections disagree on that, you come across sounding very contradictory... hence the lack of trust. I completely agree with StarWhisper on that.

What I would suggest is first, email and call breeders who are currently breeding and showing. Tell them that you already have a dog but would like to add a second to your family. Tell them a few reasons WHY you think that their breed would be a good fit for you/your family. Also tell them that you have a few concerns. Make it clear that you are primarily interested in a pet. I know you are interested in breeding and showing at some point, but you shouldn't make this part of your initial contact. This will turn off a lot of people.

You should also try to attend some dog shows with your breed in them. You will be able to find breeders near you there and this way also you can talk to them face-to-face and express your concerns. If the conversation goes towards - what do you want to do with the dog? - you should say that you want another family member, first and foremost, but that eventually you'd like to enter into breeding and showing. You should probably express interest in showing first. You can show your first dog, but you may not want to breed... you need more experience for that.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[DiggityDogs]

.........................