Vet attacked by dogs

[pbrdog]

Another typical incident of irresponsible dog owners in San Diego. This idiot probably has at least a good $500 of anything that holds any value what-so-ever to protect. I hope he fries. http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10520700/detail.html

[BelovedJuggernaut]

I think that is a bit harsh to judge...

The article said that the owner and the victem were neighbors. How can you make the assumption that the owner has nothing is you know he must live in a well situated neighborhood?

Moreover, how is the owner irresponsible? Because his dogs got out? I agree that it is irresponsible for ANY dog owner to allow their dogs to free roam, but we don't know if that is the case here. The dogs may have gotten out, which happens to the best of us sometimes.

I think his actions of having his dogs put down immediately is responsible act, obviously showing remorse.


I feel bad for everyone involved and I happen to agree with the victems statement on being conflicted just how the owner should be punished.

I feel for both parties, I really do, but the bottom line is that a woman is severely injured - her children deeply affected, and two dogs are dead.

I don't think blame should be tossed around, just lessons learned.

[pbrdog]

Maybe I was a bit harsh on my statement, but seeing it on the news last night just gave me that impression. I see so much of this in San Diego anymore. :(

[BelovedJuggernaut]

I know the feeling,a fter reading about the Today show promoting designer dogs for the holidays... I am in the SAME boat.

It is not even noon and I need a drink... lol!

[SmoothCollieluver]

Poor dogs. Boxers are such good dogs normally.

[Rottweilerlvr]

Does it shock you Smooth? That is was a boxer that bite someone? Would your reaction have been the same if it was a pitbull or a rottweiler?

I am saddened by this news, but I'm no longer shocked. I am disgusted about it, and am at the point where I want to go hide in a hole and not see anything.

[StarfishSaving]

Hmm, yes I wouldn't judge too harshly.

The vet says she's not sure what she thinks about the guy going to jail: "On the one hand, you want to forgive, and on the other hand, you don't want this ever to happen to anyone else again," Matthews said.

I think that's been taken care of. I think the owner of the dogs showed adequate remorse and dealt with the situation responsibly. He may have made a lapse of judgement because I have a feeling the dogs didn't just escape, but I'm QUITE sure the owner isn't going to let it happen again if he gets more dogs.

[DiggityDogs]

Sure, it's been taken care of NOW. However, I think that owner proved that he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to dog behavior. He was quoted as saying 'i think they were just instinctively protecting their property'. Since when do dogs own property? So sure, the problem is resolved for now because two dogs had to die. What about when he goes out to some backyard breeder and buys two more dogs, which he will inevitably neglect behaviorally and they bite someone else? I don't think it's harsh to judge- I'm glad he stepped up and had those dogs euthanized, but did he really learn his lesson? was the problem really solved? If the attack went on for 15 minutes and NOBODY stopped it, where the hell was he? Why were his dogs outside, unattended? It raises a LOT of questions in my mind.

[pbrdog]

Sure, it's been taken care of NOW. However, I think that owner proved that he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to dog behavior. He was quoted as saying 'i think they were just instinctively protecting their property'. Since when do dogs own property? So sure, the problem is resolved for now because two dogs had to die. What about when he goes out to some backyard breeder and buys two more dogs, which he will inevitably neglect behaviorally and they bite someone else? I don't think it's harsh to judge- I'm glad he stepped up and had those dogs euthanized, but did he really learn his lesson? was the problem really solved? If the attack went on for 15 minutes and NOBODY stopped it, where the hell was he? Why were his dogs outside, unattended? It raises a LOT of questions in my mind.

That's sort of the impression I got from seeing it last night on the news. The guy knew he'd better dispose of the dogs to avoid a definite lawsuit, even though he still may have one. These knucklehead "mean backyard dog owners" think that having a nean dog is a status symbol. Even if the dogs were taken by the police, run over by a car, stolen, killed in a dog fight, etc, they will have another dog to replace it before you know it. A girl in my office told me this morning that she saw someone in the parking lot at the mall selling pitbull puppies "with blue eyes" for $1300 yesterday. And you know what? I bet they were sold within a couple hours. San Diego does have a law that prohibits the sale of pets in parking lots from vehicles, but it still happens.

[StarfishSaving]

He was quoted as saying 'i think they were just instinctively protecting their property'. Since when do dogs own property?

That's an excellent point. I didn't really catch that.

I don't mean to defend his actions- and I'm not. There's no question that it was irresponsibility that let the dogs get into that situation. I just think that without the whole picture, it's harsh to be name calling. It's another situation of an owner who needs to be educated. An extreme example, but it's because of ignorance, not maliciousness.

It happens all too often, and this time a whole family got hurt and the dogs who were the victims of negligence were put to sleep. Can you imagine what those kids are going through?

[ClarkFarm]

I think that dogs do react more when on "home turf", whether for good or bad.
I personally think for two dogs to react to that degree there would have had to have been some forewarning over the years that an owner would have picked up on. He knew what they acted like imo. That is why he had them destroyed so fast.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

I agree with Starfish in saying that this incident is a perfect example of an owner who doesn't know much about dog behavior and needs to be educated. It is from uneducated and inexperienced (often neglectful and just plain stupid) owners that this sort of situation comes about.

As for the dogs protecting their home, almost every dog is going to protect its home. How many times have we all talked about how protective our dogs get over us when we are home by ourselves? It is an instinct to protect their "den" from outsiders.

Since there is not a lot of details for this story, I think it is wrong to judge the situation of this case.

And just to clarify PrbDog, the owner faces a lawsuit regardless. The dogs could be dead or alive and it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law.

[DiggityDogs]

... but you have to admit that legally he fares better if he shows remorse and handles the situation accordingly. Having the dogs euthanized instead of fighting to keep them may not stop a lawsuit, but it will help him out when it comes time for a judgement. And yes, I agree, most of our dogs would naturally protect their home- the difference is they're protecting their home if they bite someone who enters your property, not if they viciously attack someone walking down the street minding their own business. That (IMO) isn't protective aggression- it's just plain aggression period. Either way it's inexcuseable.

[StarfishSaving]

And yes, I agree, most of our dogs would naturally protect their home- the difference is they're protecting their home if they bite someone who enters your property, not if they viciously attack someone walking down the street minding their own business.

I think that's a good statement, except a dog doesn't know the difference between its owner's property and the sidewalk in front of it without a lot of training and this guy obviously wasn't capable of that.

However, I absolutely agree, it's unacceptable for a dog to act like that. I don't think that any dog should be THAT "protective." I think that no matter our opinion on the guy's verdict, we can all agree that it's irresponsible to have dogs that act like that. That woman's wounds were so extreme, I can't see dogs doing that just to "defend their territory".

I'm sure they would have been amazing dogs in the hands of the right owner. D@$#it.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

... but you have to admit that legally he fares better if he shows remorse and handles the situation accordingly. Having the dogs euthanized instead of fighting to keep them may not stop a lawsuit, but it will help him out when it comes time for a judgement. And yes, I agree, most of our dogs would naturally protect their home- the difference is they're protecting their home if they bite someone who enters your property, not if they viciously attack someone walking down the street minding their own business. That (IMO) isn't protective aggression- it's just plain aggression period. Either way it's inexcuseable.


The case isn't criminal, it is civil. It wont really matter if the dog is gone or not in a civil case, he will lose regardless.

I don't think the dog was completely aggressive, maybe just not properly trained... which is obvious since the owner doesn't seem so educated about dog behavior in the first place.

I think the dogs were not trained, just a pet or whatever, either they got out or were let out, and this time someone seriously suffered.

[DiggityDogs]

I don't think the dog was completely aggressive, maybe just not properly trained...
You don't think that this dog was aggressive?????
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/1213/10520783.jpghttp://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/1213/10520782.jpg
These wounds are a week old!!

Aggressive is synonomous with improperly trained in my opinion- had the dogs been taught boundaries they would never have taken this woman to the ground and inflicted these types of wounds. A defensive dog bites once and backs off, only biting again if needed. An aggressive dog will go AFTER someone, the fact that this woman posed no threat to the dogs territory proves they were aggressive! The fact that they are aggressive proves that they are improperly trained!

Regardless of whether the case is criminal or civil, even in a civil case the judge has discression over the judgement, and I'm sure, from what I've seen, that a judge will be much more harsh on someone who shows no remorse whatsoever. Of course there's a guideline for damages, but what judge wouldn't throw the book at some a-hole who could care less how his actions affected others?

Edit- I have seen a lot of aggressive dogs in my day, and only one or two that I ever imagined capable of inflicting this kind of damage on a human being. The owner HAD to have known that there were aggressive tendencies in these dogs, an aggressive dog builds his confidence to bite by starting small. This is NOT the work of an inexperienced dog.

Also- dog bites like this can be tried criminally if there is a) a death, as in the diane whipple case, or b) a near death, where the dog can be considered a deadly weapon if it can be proved that the dog was known to be aggressive towards humans, to the best of my knowledge.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

I think the dogs were agggressive in their attack on this woman, yes, but I thought you were saying that they were aggressive dogs regardless.

I have seen some horrible dog attacks where the family pet went nuts, but the dog was a good natured dog prior. I thought you meant the dogs were always aggresive, I don't know if that is the case here though.

There is no doubt in my mind that the dogs were aggressive in their attack, home front or not, the victem posed no threat.

And I too have seen dogs that I never thought were capable of wounds similar to these, but they were without warning.


And you are correct, a dog can be considered a deadly weapon (in cases of known aggression or event protection training). A death by dog attack is also considered criminal, but in this particular case, the victem would only be able to go after the owner for civil charges.

I am telling you, the dogs being alive or not has NO bearing in this case.

[DiggityDogs]

.

I am telling you, the dogs being alive or not has NO bearing in this case.
If we're talking by the book, then no, technically it doesn't. But we all know that things don't always go by the book, and really the point is the PERCIEVED edge that the dog owner thought he may get by euthanizing his dogs, not whether or not he will actually get an edge in court.

What I mean by capable-
Dogs are capable of serious injuries. All dogs. I meant mentally capable. I've been training for 13 years and working with aggressive dogs for the last 6. I have seen some serious cases. I've seen a dog rip a man's bicept OFF. He required a graft from his thigh and lost 30% of his bicept. I've been bitten and seriously injured by a dog who was quite aggressive, but once he bit me three or four times, after grabbing and shaking my forearm and piercing my eyelid with his claw, he felt he'd made his point clear and released me and moved on. I have seen a total of exactly 3 dogs who I would consider MENTALLY capable of seriously injuring/killing a person. Most dogs, if you are intimately familiar with the behavior of aggressive dogs, do not have it in them to persist the way that these dogs did unless they are previously trained, or behaviorally neglected to the point that they have previously bitten and gained the confidence in themselves to go further. I would bet my life on it. Again, this is NOT the work of an inexperienced biter. This is an adult, confident, dominant dog that has likely had ZERO boundaries in his life.

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN THE PSYCHE OF A DOG WHO 'BITES' VS. A DOG WHO 'ATTACKS'.

[Rottweilerlvr]

And I too have seen dogs that I never thought were capable of wounds similar to these, but they were without warning.


A dog always gives a warning before he does anything, just many humans don't see it or don't understand what he's trying to tell you... The beautiful thing about dogs is that they always wear their emotions on their "sleeves", they always tell you what they are going to do... I have yet to work with a dog that didn't tell me when he was going to try to bite me, which is why it is still "try" instead of "did". I'm not foolish enough to think that because I can understand the warning that I will never get bite, but when the time comes and I do, you won't here me say " the dog gave me no warning".

[BelovedJuggernaut]

A dog always gives a warning before he does anything, just many humans don't see it or don't understand what he's trying to tell you... The beautiful thing about dogs is that they always wear their emotions on their "sleeves", they always tell you what they are going to do... I have yet to work with a dog that didn't tell me when he was going to try to bite me, which is why it is still "try" instead of "did". I'm not foolish enough to think that because I can understand the warning that I will never get bite, but when the time comes and I do, you won't here me say " the dog gave me no warning".

But then we assume that everyone recognizes these signs. What I meant to say was that the dogs I have seen do horrid damage (only 2 that I can think of) comparable to this story have had no noticed (by the family) prior aggression issues.
Now, these issues may be very clear to someone with experience, but to the owners, they never had biting issues before. One particular owner I know personally, they had a pit mix who was a lovable and very sweet dog, never had issues that were too apparent (I saw food issues mainly when I was over)... the dog snapped on a cop of all people, inflicting thee worst attack I have seen in a LONG time. The cop was fine, the dog was shot several times by an officer on the scene.
All the dog was doing was hanging out in the front yard (their yard is fenced), the cops came up to ask that volume be turned down, they were sitting and talking for a good 10 minutes before the dog actually reacted, and it had been present for the entire 10 minutes.
In this particular story, I know the owner and the man who was bitten, both friends of the family. Both parties felt horrible and don't know what happened... the one officer who shot the dog was a K9 officer to boot (also a family friend).

Anyway, back to my point...

Most owners would not be able to catch certain signs of aggression that experienced dog owners can.

I personally am in the same boat, every dog or horse I have ever worked with, I know when they are going to have an issue, but I have been working with dogs/horses for a very long time. I am no expect by any means, but I agree with you in saying that dogs wear their emotions on their sleeves for the majority of the time.

I guess what my main point is, through all of this, is that the owner did not know what he was dealing with...

I harp on the fact that owners should be educated about their dogs (behavior, breed, whatever)... so situations like this don't happen.

[DiggityDogs]

The fact that he did not know is irresponsible to me. Yes, he needed to be educated, but who's fault is it that he was not educated in his own animal's behavior? I think it is a cop out to say that an inexperienced dog owner doesn't know how to read the signs of aggression when a dog attacks someone as badly as these two did. Like rott said, ALL dogs give signs. There is no such thing as a dog that snaps without warning. Someone who owns a dog like a pit, ESPECIALLY a dog like a pit, should be educating themselves on dog behavior from day one. Would you expect someone to purchase a handgun and then feel safe around them without them having taken the proper training courses regarding that weapon? I don't let someone off the hook that easy, just because they didn't know how to read the signs. It is your responsibility as a dog owner to learn and know all you can about the care of your dog and that includes behavior.

[DiggityDogs]

I was reviewing the slides again from this story and underneath one of them was this quote-

''Animal control has provided information on the attack to the district attorney, who hasn't decided yet whether to file criminal charges.''

So he could potentially be facing criminal charges. I would guess at the least dogs at large, possibly negligence.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

The fact that he did not know is irresponsible to me. Yes, he needed to be educated, but who's fault is it that he was not educated in his own animal's behavior? I think it is a cop out to say that an inexperienced dog owner doesn't know how to read the signs of aggression when a dog attacks someone as badly as these two did. Like rott said, ALL dogs give signs. There is no such thing as a dog that snaps without warning. Someone who owns a dog like a pit, ESPECIALLY a dog like a pit, should be educating themselves on dog behavior from day one. Would you expect someone to purchase a handgun and then feel safe around them without them having taken the proper training courses regarding that weapon? I don't let someone off the hook that easy, just because they didn't know how to read the signs. It is your responsibility as a dog owner to learn and know all you can about the care of your dog and that includes behavior.


Im not letting the owner off the hook, I am just saying that people (in general) think that they know their pets well enough. The general public is okay with just the bare minimum, which is just plain sad.

And I agree, some dog breeds (pits) need WAY more education then others. The family friend I was speaking of, in my opinion, should have never owned that dog. It isn't my place to tell him so, just suggest that he may want to seek out a CGC certificate to give his dog a standing within the community (which is the polite way of saying,"get your dog and you some training").


And about the criminal charges, of course he is going to face them! The only thing the DA is going to look at is if he can prove that the owner is completely at fault... which sucks.

[DiggityDogs]

The case isn't criminal, it is civil. It wont really matter if the dog is gone or not in a civil case, he will lose regardless.

??? :confused:

[ClarkFarm]

The owner HAD to have known that there were aggressive tendencies in these dogs, an aggressive dog builds his confidence to bite by starting small. This is NOT the work of an inexperienced dog.


Totally agree... My previous GSD was very aggressive at first. It didn't take me long to realize this! When she savagely snapped at people through my screen door I knew it was time to get help. We spent 4 years in training together. I knew that if she had been in the wrong hands, she could have caused some serious damage to someone. It wasn't easy and I'm not sure if I would go through all that again but in the end, she was my heart dog and I will never forget her.

The fact that he did not know is irresponsible to me.
He did know. Whether he will admit it or not is another story. You would have to be blind and stupid not to see the clues in a dog with such aggressive prone behavior.

[GSP4619]

I also think you don't even have to be trained in agressive behavior to notice that your dog is aggressive he had to have some feeling IMO. I don't know it is just so frusterating to me to see & hear all this horror. I have never in my life knew anything about dogs until all that happen with my Rottie and I ended up doing research and found a dog group and I was amazed at what all these people knew about dogs from their experience's either breeding or showing or just every day life. Then in forums like ours here it so totaly mind blowing. I can't tell you how many times I come across people and I always have some kind of input to add that I had heard or seen to help educate them. Wishful thinking this is, I wish do you remember that movie Pay it Forward I think that was the name? Well my wish would be to do something like that to educate people on their dogs or even if they are thinking of getting one.

Tonight I am going to go home not read the paper nor look at the news for that matter. I need a day of being totaly clueless :D

[DiggityDogs]

I would believe that he didn't know the dogs were aggressive- it's hard to know something like that when you just throw them out in the yard and never spend any time with them except to feed them. I would bet that this is the case here.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

??? :confused:


Sorry!!

The victem can only go to civil court...

The law can pursue is criminal case, but it seems more likely that he may just face a fine since it would be hard to PROVE that he let the dogs out intentionally.



I think, perhaps, I need to really be more clear on the legal stuff...
Just because I know what I mean doesn't mean ya'll do! :rolleyes:

[pbrdog]

I would believe that he didn't know the dogs were aggressive- it's hard to know something like that when you just throw them out in the yard and never spend any time with them except to feed them. I would bet that this is the case here.

BINGO! That is exactly the impression I get. I see it so much here. People want a dog (family pet) and keep in the backyard, and feed it by filling a 5 gallon bucket with food (only the best, like ol' roy, Alpo, etc) and a bucket of water. Once in a great while, look out the door to see if it's still there or listen for it's annoying barking that all the neighbors love to hear too. And the nice neighbors who let their dog out the front door to go take care of it's business in someone else's yard. I have to admit, there's a couple dogs in my hood that don't come around my yard anymore. I wonder what the vet fee is for pellet removal? I doubt they ever took it in to see.

[GSP4619]

I didn't think of it like that. You two are right he probably did just toss them out. Horrible.

[reeskujo]

All I can say is my Akita is very territorial as are alot of breeds but if you come near his territory he will warn you by barking.The only way he would attack is if you tried to break into my home or cause harm to me or my husband,however knowing that if you tried to enter my yard and I or my husband were not out there that there's a possibility he may bite he is never left unattended in the yard.At the same time he can see the kids next door playing next to our fence in their yard and won't pay them any mind.I find it really hard to believe these dogs had never shown agressive tendencies before.As was said in a previous post this doesn't sound like the work of an inexperienced dog and IMO the fact that the owner put them down so quickly leads me to think he knew the dogs had issues.

[ClarkFarm]

IMO the fact that the owner put them down so quickly leads me to think he knew the dogs had issues.

That is what I think as well. Even if he had hardly any interactions with them, there would still be clues. Excessive barking, lunging, fence chasing...etc...