This is out of control

[reeskujo]

A bill has just been passed by the Senate saying that if anyone protest in front of pet shops,slauhgters houses and the such and causes the buisness to loose money they will be arrested for Animal Economic Terrorism.Are we turning into a dam communist country or what?Who's supposed to speak out for the animals if we're not allowed to.I'm furious over this!

[SmoothCollieluver]

I'm sure that will be repealed. that's against our admendments. If abortion clincs lose money are we going to be fined for that too.

[reeskujo]

From what I've read Bush already plans to sign it into law!!!

[DiggityDogs]

You can thank PETA for ruining that for everyone.

[Stark]

We all have our own agenda in life whether you agree with me or I with you. There are those who protest any and everything for no other reason than something to do. This is the very reason we have so many BS laws in this country now, we run to big brother to the point of big brother doing what he wants. Look at the supporters of the bill and who proposed it, there you'll find the agenda. While I disagree with the abuse of animals I also disagree with disrupting a legal business which in itself is a freedom. Each of us have an opinion as to what is right and wrong. What does disturb me is uneducated idiots jumping around in an unorganized manner. Education is the biggest part of the solution, let's face it the general public is ignorant when it comes to issues not directly related to them or their lifestyle. What is important to you may be unimportant to the next man, does that make him or them any less of a person.
We have become so caught up in the BS of life and allowed our childrens minds to be corrupted with fantasy that the things that truly surround them and their future is hidden in plain view.

[Stark]

I was distracted for a while and had to come back to this. I really don't want to be misunderstood on this issue. I personally take notice of those who conduct themselves in a professional manner and exude confidence in what they're doing. Standing in front of a business with signs, chanting and disrupting my freedom of movement does nothing more than create hostility towards the protestors. I was born and raised in Southwest Va. Nothing pisses me off more than someone saying "well, I'm just an old country boy". Well, so am I but that doesn't mean I'm stupid. The point I'm trying to make is this, a professional and educated presentation and approach is more affective than running around looking like a bunch of 60's throw backs (God bless them, no disrespect intended). Standing in front of a business with signs protesting brings back memories of the past which are not so readily welcomed. Educate yourself, educate others.

[ClarkFarm]

I am not one to like "protests" myself. They often become out of control and only serve to make the participants appear radical.

How would you feel if a group of people objected to something you did legally (which is where the real problem lies) and made some obstacle in front of your house? I just don't think its productive at all.

[reeskujo]

Stark,while I do agree with you on most of these issues it is one of our freedoms in this country to be aloud to do so.Yes,some of these people should be aressted but being labeled as terrorist is crazy.AS it is we can now be labeled an enemy conbatant for protesting the war or speaking out against the government.To me that's just crazy!It seems like little by little all of our civil rights are being flushed down the toilet!

[BelovedJuggernaut]

Alright, after researching the bill itself, thinking about the rammifications that businesses face if a particular group does not like their form of doing business, reading a little further into the first amendment, and so on...

I think I find myself, as a US Citizen & Business Owner, in support of this bill. While I am an animal lover & owner as well, this bill presented is designed specifically for demonstrations that are animal related, and protect businesses from the losses they face if the group were to protest outside.
Protesting a pet store may cause the pet store to loose business suppliers due to the fact that the supplier does not want any bad publicity, thus creating a gap in the spot that supplier filled. From I business standpoint, I understand exactly why this bill is helpful.

---- More later, it is lunchtime and I need food to think!





Some Links:

First Amendment Explained (http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/constitution/amendment01/20.html#1)

Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act - Status/Overview (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?tab=main&bill=h109-4239)

Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act Itself (http://www.theorator.com/bills109/s1926.html)

Anti-Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act Campaign (http://www.stopaeta.org/)

[reeskujo]

What about the pet stores who have pets that are unhealthy and bought from puppy mills?Is a buisness losing money because they don't care of the pets more important then the money?If their animals are bought from puppy mills and unhealthy they shouldn't be in buisness to begin with!

[wyattabby]

Stark,while I do agree with you on most of these issues it is one of our freedoms in this country to be aloud to do so.Yes,some of these people should be aressted but being labeled as terrorist is crazy.AS it is we can now be labeled an enemy conbatant for protesting the war or speaking out against the government.To me that's just crazy!It seems like little by little all of our civil rights are being flushed down the toilet!


simply protesting the war or a pet store simply isn't all these people do. when their freedom of speech infringes on the rights of others then there needs to be a line drawn. look at the nutjobs who protest in front of fallen soldiers funerals for instance...it's one thing to express your views, it's another to affect someone else while doing it.

[BelovedJuggernaut]

What about the pet stores who have pets that are unhealthy and bought from puppy mills?Is a buisness losing money because they don't care of the pets more important then the money?If their animals are bought from puppy mills and unhealthy they shouldn't be in buisness to begin with!


But what you ae saying is that it is soley the responsability of the pet store owners to ensure people who are buying from them a healthy dog and not the buyers responsability. While I agree that puppymills supplying some pet stores & unhealthy animals being sold is unethical, I cannot put all the blame on the store itself. What about the buyers who seek animals? Is it not their responsability to educate themselves on the matter?
I have to agree with Stark on the point the education is the key, not protests that damage the repuation of a business. Since there is no law against slaughterhouses or petstores doing what they do, education is the best defense against ignorant (unaware) individuals who buy from these people and know no better.

I personally don't see a reason for people to protest against slaughterhouses, they are food for America, I don't believe that ethics really apply in a situation where the animal is to be consumed nonetheless.

As for pet stores, perhaps introducing what legal ramifications pet stores could have if they continue to buy from BYB or Puppy Mills would be more effective. Maybe starting an organized campaign against puppymills and who is supplied with them to EVERY home in America is more worth while then protesting on the corner.

Even though animals lives will be lost, i think it is best to look at the long term goal rather then short term. Animals die now, but by allowing that sacrafice and starting a campaign that targets everyone may help pass a bill in the long run that protects animals. Also, you can't expect every American to live by your morals/ethics. Some people don't care about animals at all, let alone how they are being treated/bred, so you can't always appeal on that level.... what you can do is approach the topic from every aspect, including finacial burdens it causes to tax payers.

And to answer your question, "Is a buisness losing money because they don't care of the pets more important then the money?"

- Yes. Business is business, the question is a matter of ethics and moral obligation. Like I said, increasing awareness of the problem to everyone, in a rational and organized matter, is probably better then worry about the short term problem.

[SmoothCollieluver]

I personally don't have a problem with pet stores selling puppies. We should have the choice to do what we want. No one if forcing anyone to buy from there. But I don't like being told not to do anything, which explains my stance on this bill.

[Rottweilerlvr]

Why would someone want to protest in front of a business or building anyway? There is always other ways... Like set up a event and make it educational or something or start a website. I am all for freedom and freedom of speech, but sometimes it is taken too far. Do I like that puppies are sold in pet stores, no, I don't, but that's why I made a educational video on pet stores and puppy mills and I let people decide for themselves were they want to buy their puppy. Unfortunately, we can't control everything, and the government has to realize that they can't control everything either. We also have to realize that we can't make everyone happy, we can't make everyone understand how we think or preceive something, we can't convince everyone that BSL doesn't work, etc. Figure out some other way to send your message out.

Beloved-- Legally, would passing out flyers be okay? I'm riding the fence on this one.

Anyway, good luck!! Everything will work out!!

[seraphicia]

Protesting is a right and it does change things. A petland was protested for something like 32 strait saturdays and was finally closed by the owners. If the laws cant be changed to protect dogs, theres no problem in my mind with using my individual rights to protest the store that supports those practices of puppy milling(by buying their 'products' to mark up prices to make a huge profit from misery). If the protest is done right, peacefully with a mind for educating the public, its great IMO, and does make a difference if not in the system, in some of the people who go past the store of once were customers. It raises awareness, and if the store weren't doing something morally wrong there wouldnt be a need, so if they are there is and its a way to make a difference when our governement fails to take action on behalf of the dogs. There are plenty of ways to make money in the billion dollar pet product industry without profiting on the misery of hundreds of thousands of dogs. Stores, particularly chains that sell 'purebred puppies from local breeders' as they claim actually come from brokers that get them from mills, and they make enough money elsewise to not need to cover up the fact that they support mills by claiming otherwise. Its outrgeousand heartbreaking and any media attention of public awareness brought about by the protests makes a difference in the system.

[reeskujo]

Serephicia,I totaly agree with you.Granted there are other ways to do it but nothing brings more attention to a bad buisness then a peaceful protest,and to be declared a terrorsist if you do it and the buisness loses money-What kind of crap is that?It's our civil right.I don't want to get political here but little by little this administration is taking away our rights.I was once in a pet shop and they were showing someone an Akita pup.The cage he was in was barely big enough for him to turn around in,he was of poor quality,had drainage from his eyes and they sttill wanted $1,ooo.He wasn't worth $300.Tell me that pup didn't come from a puppy mill?I've never protested but I am always writing legislatiion to try and fight certain bills.We have to do what we have to do to protect the animals even if it's protesting as long as it's done peacefully.I don't want people to loose their lively hood and their income to support their families but I also don't want these animals abused.Do you know how many reptiles bought from pet stores are either full of mites or die within days?

[BelovedJuggernaut]

Why would someone want to protest in front of a business or building anyway? There is always other ways... Like set up a event and make it educational or something or start a website. I am all for freedom and freedom of speech, but sometimes it is taken too far. Do I like that puppies are sold in pet stores, no, I don't, but that's why I made a educational video on pet stores and puppy mills and I let people decide for themselves were they want to buy their puppy. Unfortunately, we can't control everything, and the government has to realize that they can't control everything either. We also have to realize that we can't make everyone happy, we can't make everyone understand how we think or preceive something, we can't convince everyone that BSL doesn't work, etc. Figure out some other way to send your message out.

Beloved-- Legally, would passing out flyers be okay? I'm riding the fence on this one.

Anyway, good luck!! Everything will work out!!


Legally, passing out flyers is alright. However, in this particular bill itself, it sounds as though any disruption to the animal enterprise (including flyers) may not be tolerated.

I think some revisions are needed, perhaps applying for permits to allow a peaceful demonstration...

All and all, I agree that it is our right to gather/protest, but how you do it is the key. I support this bill, but I would liek to see some revisions made that do not restrict our rights as much.

And really, for all of those who say, "It is a civil right..." Well, if you look at our constituation and bill of rights, there is a clause that allows us law makers and those in power to make restrictions/limitations, or even whole new rights for us. That is the power that has always been, and always will be.

[reeskujo]

I'm sure your right on the legalities as law isn't my specialty,however labeling someone as a terrorist because they protested a buisness that probably shouldn't be operating in the first place is getting a little ridiculous!Now a days it seems like if you do anything the administration doesn't like they want to label you a terrorist,yet Osama Bin Ladin is still loose.I will never let the law stop me from protecting abused or neglected animals especially because a buisness that gets most of it's pups from puppy mills and BYB breeders is losing money.They shouldn't be making it that way anyway.I guess if CPS was abusing children we would get in trouble if we protested that to?Animals can't tell people when their being abused or neglected.WE have to be their voice.I'm not trying to start an argument or be nasty but I think as long as people are protesting peacefully they should be left alone.What are they doing about the people protesting at our dead soldiers funerals with signs like"Thank God for dead soldiers/NOTHING.THAT is sickening.Lets declare people who protest against pet shops get aressted and be called terrorist and at the same time let the people protesting at a soldiers funeral doing it caring those nasty signs do it with no legal consequences.IMO,this country is going to hell in a hand basket.

[reeskujo]

I'm sure your right about the legalities since law isn't my specialty but now a days if you do anything this administration doesn't like they want to label you a terrosist,yet Osama is still loose?If CPS was abusing children would we be aressted and labeled a terrorist for that.I think as long as people are being peaceful in their protest they should be left alone!Most pet store pups come from puppy mills or BYB breeders.Animals can not speak for themselves so WE have to be their voice.There is know law that will stop me from speaking out for neglected and abused animals!If their making money off of puppy mill and BYB pups they shouldn't be in buisness anyway,and what about the people protesting at our dead soldiers funerals holding signs like"Thank God for dead soldiers?What are they doing about that?NOTHING!!!!IMO this country is going to hell in a hand basket!

[reeskujo]

Sorry,I double posted.It wouldn't let me delete the second one!

[BelovedJuggernaut]

I will never let the law stop me from protecting abused or neglected animals especially because a buisness that gets most of it's pups from puppy mills and BYB breeders is losing money.They shouldn't be making it that way anyway.
What are they doing about the people protesting at our dead soldiers funerals with signs like"Thank God for dead soldiers/NOTHING.THAT is sickening.Lets declare people who protest against pet shops get aressted and be called terrorist and at the same time let the people protesting at a soldiers funeral doing it caring those nasty signs do it with no legal consequences.IMO,this country is going to hell in a hand basket.


First of all, we are a country of laws and if you openly say that you wont abide by them, you really have no business being in the country. Your opinion is that Puppy Mills & BYB should not be supplying pet stores, but there is not a law in place against it... so maybe trying to get a law in place would be the best ideal to solve the problem. I don't like it anymore then you do, but I cannot save EVERY animal from a bad life, moreso, I have to know when to pick and choose my battles.... protesting at a pet store just is something that infringes on more rights then banning protesting at pet stores does... plain and simple.

On top of that, the people who are protesting at soldiers funerals are a religious group that believes they were doing wrong by going to war, thus deserving to be dead. I HATE seeing that and knowing that there are familes that have to be around people like that, but it is their freedom to express their religion. All be it, they have to express their religion a great distance from the actual funerals.

And as far as legal consequences, as long as you are not tarnishing someones name by making false acusations or using profanity, you can write whatever you please on a sign and hold it up pretty much anywhere you want to. This is a country that allows it, and if you feel like this country is so damn bad, then leave. Try living in another country and see how much freedom you have there.

[reeskujo]

First of all.I lobby for more laws then you can imagine for puppy mills and BYB breeders and how dare you say I don't belong in this country,why because you belong to a system that's trying to take away all of our freedoms.Granted you can't save all animals but you can try to save the ones you know are being negleted or abused.As for your defending the people who protest at the wars of soldiers funerals because their standing far away that is what is sickening.I have every right to be in this country and state my opinion as much as you do!Just because your in law does not make you better then the people who want to save and protect animals!!!!This administration is ruining the freedoms of this country and it's apparent certain people are ok with that.I'm not!!!BTW,there is a terrorist out there that killed almost 3,000 of our Americans.How do you equate people who protest against animal abuse in the same way.Instead of passing laws to have protesters aressted and declared terrorist how about putting that money,time and effort into catching the real terrorists?

[BelovedJuggernaut]

First of all.I lobby for more laws then you can imagine for puppy mills and BYB breeders and how dare you say I don't belong in this country,why because you belong to a system that's trying to take away all of our freedoms.Granted you can't save all animals but you can try to save the ones you know are being negleted or abused.As for your defending the people who protest at the wars of soldiers funerals because their standing far away that is what is sickening.I have every right to be in this country and state my opinion as much as you do!Just because your in law does not make you better then the people who want to save and protect animals!!!!This administration is ruining the freedoms of this country and it's apparent certain people are ok with that.I'm not!!!BTW,there is a terrorist out there that killed almost 3,000 of our Americans.How do you equate people who protest against animal abuse in the same way.Instead of passing laws to have protesters aressted and declared terrorist how about putting that money,time and effort into catching the real terrorists?

Whoa, you need to chill out.

I never said you didn't belong in the country, I said that if you are not happy with the way things are going, "this country is going to hell in a handbasket," then why stay here? No one forces you to stay in a country that it seems you are so dismayed with, and it offends me to hear someone speak of our country in that matter. Furthermore, it offends me a great deal that people who live in this country of laws, know it is a country based in law, yet openly say they will ignore said law because they feel their are morally justified. That just isn't the way things work.
You said yourself you can't save all animals, and I have said MANY times before that education and trying to enact laws to protect animals is the way to go about it, even if that means sacraficing a few animals in the process. It is about the bigger picture for me, not each individual animal abused.

And to clarify, I NEVER defended those who protest at a soldiers funeral. I simply stated a fact, that they are allowed to do so because it is a religious issue and their picketing can only be limited to how many yards they must stay away. I hate the fact that they do it, but it is their right to do so.

Also, where did I say I was "better than" those who want to save/protect animals because I was "in law?" How do you know I don't want to do the same? just because i look at things through a rational legal perspective?

As far as terrorism goes, there are many types.
Terrorism defined is, "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

The person who you speak of, killing 3000+ Americans is a foreign terrorist. Economic Terrorism is defined as the attempt to assault and destroy a foe through decimation of the enemy’s tax base via rank economic sabotage. The bill in question addresses the issue of Economic terrorism with respect to pet stores/slaughterhouses/etc...
So to answer your question, I don't equate the two (foreign & economic terrorists) the same way... like I said, I try and approach things from a rational legal perspective, which is why I think that I am one of the few animal lovers who believes this bill to have good intentions.

Also, do you honestly believe that not enough lives/money/time/effort have been put into catching your so called "real" terrorists? I don't want to come off as rude,that is not my intention, but perhaps educating yourself on the various definitions of terrorism at large would put things in perspective more than I can really explain.


Either way, however you look at it, I am sorry if I offended you with what I said, but I think you need to respect the fact that not everyone may share your opinion and some of the comments you made were very offensive. Like i said, calm down...

[reeskujo]

I really don't want to argue with you,that is not my intention and I to apologize if I offended you.I agree that this is a country of laws but that does not mean that every law is a good one or fair to the citizens or animals of this country.I don't want this to to turn into a political debate as that's not what this thread is for but your right there has been MONEY spent on the effort to catch Bin Laden but not much time and effort.I do love my country,I support the soldiers,I do not however support that little by little our freedoms are being taken away!I guess what party people are determines how they feel about what is happening in this country.I for one don't like it and that's why I vote.Perhaps you should look at this not just from a legal side and perhaps YOU should educate yourself a little more politicaly!

[ClarkFarm]

Perhaps everyone should educate themselves on common respect and watch what they type. I don't want this to become a locked thread so let's all calm down and take a deep breath.

[reeskujo]

ClarkFarm,I agree and I do apologize as that was not my intention.I just feel there are more important things our government should be working on and more dangerous people that should be labeled a terrorist.I personally don't protest I act by writing legislation and trying to get bills passed that will benefit the well being of all animals,But I don't think people should not be aloud to protest a pet store if their doing it from a distance and peacefully!

[ClarkFarm]

I know its easy to become upset when you feel strongly on a certain subject. From a third party perspective, I think both of you have valid points and both mean well. I just don't want any hard feelings for anyone. This is a great forum, especially because we can debate topics and still give each other a pat on the back, no matter what our opinions are.

[reeskujo]

I truly have no hard feelings against BelovedJuggernaut or her opinions,she's certainly entitled to them as we all are,but as a person born and raised in NYC I get very upset that they would call protesters terrorists when the real one's are still out there!There are things that could be done and laws that could be passed that would better serve our country.

[Puddles]

Does anyone have a link to this bill?