So You Expect To Make Money Breeding...

[Marty]

I am always amazed by the individuals who "Oooh, you must make lot of money from the puppies". The fact is, if you are doing it right, getting all the necessecary vet checks etc., you rarely make money on a litter. The cost of having a litter of puppies adds up, even if no complications are encountered.

The cost estimated below for a litter of four puppies until eight weeks of age are on the low end of normal, especially the cost of the bitch herself. A good breeding-quality bitch (which for many is the same as a show-quality bitch) can cost between $800 and $2000. The following assumes that you are getting the necessary testing, that you are breeding to a stud of quality that is equal to or better than the bitch, and that everything goes perfectly with the pregnancy and delivery.

Item Estimated Cost
Prior to breeding
Purchase of bitch (adult) $800.00
one year of food, shots, etc. $300.00
supplies: crate, toys, etc. $100.00
OFA check $125.00
vWD check $140.00
Thyroid check $50.00
Eye check $25.00
Total prior to breeding $1540.00

At time of breeding
brucellosis and culture $70.00
round-trip shipping of bitch $320.00
stud fee $350.00
Total at time of breeding $740.00

For a litter of four puppies:
extra food/vitamins for dam $50.00
food/vitamins for puppies $70.00
dewclaw removal $48.00
first shots (at vet's) $50.00
vet check of puppies $80.00
Total cost for puppies $298.00
Total cost of litter: $2578.00


This $2578 does not include the cost of of the time you have spent on the litter: the time spent socializing and housebreaking the dam; sleeping beside the welping pen waiting for the puppies; assisting in the delivery; cleaning the puppy pen; going to the vet for dewclaws,shots,etc,; and interviewing potential buyers for the puppies.

Now look at the price of pet puppies in your part of the country. Even if all four puppies from this litter are sold, would you recover your cost? For example, pet puppies from reputable breeders here in Phoenix area sell for $400.00. At that price, I would losse $978.00 on this litter. ( And if I kept one puppy from this litter, add another $400.00 to that figure.)

But, you say, I won't have some of these expenses for the second litter--I can make up this dificit by breeding her a second time. Not really. Assuredly, I won't have the purchase price of the bitch, nor even the vWD or OFA testing cost. But I will have everything else. THese expenses total $1413.00, again not accounting for the time I put into this endeavor. Again, if I sold all four puppies for $400.00, I would get $1600.00--a profit of $187.00. At this rate, I would recoup the loss from the first breeding on this bitch's seventh litter and have a total profit of $56.00.

There are only two ways to make a profit breeding dogs. One way is to reduce costs. Yes, I can learn to do some things myself, such as give shots to the dam and her puppies myself and do the dewclaws myself. Many reputable breeders do these things for themselves. This will reduce my cost a tad.

I could also not get the OFA, Eye, Thyroid, vWD, brucellosis or cultures done. That would save me quite a bit of money. But then, how would both I and the purchaser know that these puppies did not inherit a genetic dissorder? These are not the actions of a reputable breeder.

This second method of making a profit would be to establish a reputation of breeding top quality show dogs and selling show prospects and show-quality older dogs for an increased price. However, this really does entail more work and expense because I would first have to demonstrate that my dogs do win in the show ring on a consistent basis. Ah, but this would involve paying entry fees, handlers or traveling to the shows myself, buying grooming supplies, paying for photos of my wins and advertising these wins etc., etc., etc.

Is there really any profit to be made in breeding dogs?

[redridinghood1313]

and wow...your costs are low. one year of food and shots only $300???? and a bitch only $800?
If good quality purebreds could be gotten that cheap...I'd have gotten one by now instead of a long line of mixed breeds.

[jmg]

so i ask, ......what's the motivation?

[HOHAMBULLS]

Man you are right on, you would not believe how many people come to my yard and the first thing they ask is "I bet you make a lot of money off pups huh?" Most individuals have no idea of the time and expense that goes into a litter, they just see $$$$$$. My last litter was 14 pups in the hottest part of the 2004 summer, July 29th the pups were whelped. The dam got masstitus early on and had to be hospitalized and had 2 mamory glands removed= $1700 the pups then had to be bottle fed 4-5 times a day, and remember there are 14, and since they were not getting mothers milk their immune systems were fragile and they ALL developed cocsidius and had to be vet examined and treated=$250 That was a night mare and one of the reason's I decided not to breed this year and focused more on going to Shows and Working events.

[HOHAMBULLS]

This is a great article about breeding, check it out jmg.
http://abhardcopy.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?pvp=main/&cmd=get&cG=734323433303&zu=373432343330&v=2&gV=0&p=

[j921]

I have been breeding dogs for most of my adult life 10 years. During the first 3 years when I had 1-3 dogs I made a lot of $$ on the litters. Food and vet care for 3 dogs barely costs what you get for several pups, let alone several litters.

Then I started showing and adding and upgrading my lines. I probably lost money for 5-6 years. Now I am where I want to be as far as number of dogs, quality, and health stuff. I have learned a lot, and have decent vets that don't rape me for basic services. I make a TON of money. Much more money than I made working a regular job with a degree.

You just have to be smart, learn to do some puppy/dog care your self, find a good vet and mentor and I don't know why people would lose money. Also, if someone is not working out for my breeding program, they are gone. Fast, to a very nice pet home, as when they are retired.

I think a lot of times breeders cry poverty so more people don't start breeding and take away from their customers.

[Patch O' Pits]

Honestly, responsible breeders are not breeding Tons of litters a year and breed to better the breed not to make cash. When done correctly and with quality dogs it is expensive and that is not including if their are complications. Breeding by responsible breeders is not done for cash motivation, but with the goal of bettering the breed..

We do not try to scare people away by saying it is expensive... it is expensive. Responsible breeders do not cut corners on any aspect of the breeding and

Honestly, the only people I know who can make a living on breeding are puppy millers and BYBs and that is sad

Here is a quick breakdown a little different than what was first posted and with more added that I feel is improtant.

Breed or not to breed???? That is the question

For those of you considering breeding or with an unneutered or unspayed dog...This may make you run out to get them fixed ASAP

No the term responsible breeder is not an oxi moron as some believe LOL
Responsible breeders are far and few between

Food for thought...
First off is your dog a pure bred papered great specimen of his/her breed. If not stop already... get them fixed ASAP. Don't add to the unwanted pups in the world.

Are still thinking about it....

If you think it is easy to be a breeder ...... think again
To be a reputible/ responsible breeder there is not only a ton of work and expense, but also sometimes heartache

Here are just a few things to consider.

Reputable Breeders who actually make any money off their pups are rare. Most are lucky to break even on a litter. They are not in it for the money, but for the love and improvement of the breed.

First question to ask yourself, Does my dog meet the guidelines for the standard in structure and temperament? Make sure you read and read then read again, oh yea then read AGAIN the standard before answering.

Other questions now...Is the dog health tested or titled in either conformation or working events? Is the dog old enough to breed? Females must be at least

So you think you're going to make a lot of money? LOL
W-R-O-N-G... not if you are a responsible breeder who only breeds occassionally. Breeders are lucky to break even and sometimes can turn a minmal profit. They are not worried about the $$$$, they are worried about the breed

Here is a break down of just some things you need to do out of pocket in no particular order:

-You have to pay for health tests on the parents ( this can be quite costly)

-Stud fees if you don't own the male

- pre and post natal checkups for the mama

-extra vet bills if, God forbid there are complications with the birth or pups such as a c-sec or premature pups
(both females and pups can die during pregnancy and whelping)

- Pups can also die at any time after the birth if not properly cared for or if born with complications such as cleft palette, or may need to be put down. Are you prepared?

-Artificial insemination if the stud is too far away and you don't want to fly the dog or the flight round trip for the female to get to the male.

- hormone tests on the ***** if there is going to be an AI

-whelping supplies

- food, pup milk replacer if needed, bottles if needed

-Litter registration

-Shots for the pups

-worm meds

- a regular vet check on the pups to get health certificates for their new owners

-DNA-P for the parents

-microchips or tattoos for the parents and pups

- now add in all the show or working events fees, the cgc or tt or tdi tests the parents did to obtain their titles, and any trainining classes you paid for to get them ready.

Other things breeders need to be responsible for:

Early training and proper socialization of the puppies

Sleepless nights, heheheh weeks even months of being up with the puppies making sure they get enough food every 2 hrs, and rotating or bottle feeding large litters to help out the mama (forget about a social life during this time LOL)

Constantly cleaning up to make sure the pups stay in a clean environment.

Then after all that you are responsible for screening and checking all potential homes and keeping LIFE-LONG tabs on your pups.

The breeder must be on call to answer any and all question and to help with all pups they place for the life of the dog.

You may have to take some back do to poor placements or people just deciding the pups are too much. Be prepared to take the dog back at any age ... it happens.

Be prepared to keep and care for any pups you can't find good homes for.

You can have a litter of one or a litter of 14, so look out. You never know.

Also, the heartbreak when they leave you even when you know you have done a good job placing them and they will be loved in their new home.

Now just REMEMBER there are thousands of dogs and pups put to sleep and abused each year others just sitting in rescues waiting to be loved!

Now would you still do it?
Could you handle it?

__________________________________________________ _________________

*Here is the Estimated Cost of Breeding a Healthy Litter from an ethical dog breeder*: ( of course pries of things vary from sate to state and among different vets)

Health clearances for female before breeding & submitting to OFA and or penn hip and CERF 350-700.

Health clearances for stud before breeding & submitting to OFA 350-700

Veterinary exam for ***** before breeding (neg. brucellosis test, fecal for worms, health certificate if shipping ***** to stud). $250.00

******l Smear & Progesterone testing on ***** to track ovulation timing (includes 3 -5 ******l Smears & 3- 5 Progesterone). $450+

Average Stud Fee (unless owner of ***** uses their own stud dog). $1000.00+

Cost of shipping ***** via airline to stud dog and back to owner (unless owner of ***** uses their own stud dog). $500.00+

Extra food and additional vitamins for ***** while pregnant. $150.00

Postpartum check for *****. $150.00

C-section for ***** if necessary plus radiograph to count puppies. $665.00+

Veterinary exam of entire litter. $25.00+ per pup

Vaccinations and worming for each puppy in litter (includes two sets of vaccinations and two wormings).Per Puppy. $30.00+ thus in a 12 pup litter that is $360+

Puppy Food and additional vitamins for each puppy before and after weaning. $300.00+

Time and classes training for show and or working titles about $20 per class session

Therapy dog certificate $25, CGC 15.00
not to mention any training classes for that as well if needed which would be more

Microchipping both the female, stud dog and the whole litter about 200+

DNA profile for the female $50.00

DNA for the male $50.00

DNA for the pups themselves is usually done by their new owners

General cost to showing a female to Championship status. 200 - $500.00+ with travel costs

General cost to showing stud to Championship status. 200- $500.00+ with travel costs

General cost to campaign female to "UWP" Weightpull title $150.00+

General cost to campaign stud to "UWP" Weightpull title $150.00+

TOTAL AMOUNT FOR BREEDING & RAISING ONE LITTER a lot of $$$ when you do it right

RESPONSIBLE breeders are NOT in it for the money but the love and betterment of the breed

Responsibly breeding and raising a litter is NOT cheap and RARELY if NEVER a money making event! The calculations are general numbers and did not include other activities such as INTL Ch's , Weightpull titles past the initial UWP , Campaigning towards GR CH's, or Top Ten competition nor did they include the cost of registering the litter through AKC and/or UKC , extra visits to the Veterinarian for checkups or dewclaws, or Artificial Insemination on the ***** if natural breeding was not possible.

We are also very concerned and take great care to make sure any pup comming from us ends up in the best homes so please be prepared to answer questions about where our pup will be growing up and living. We also encourage you to ask us questions as well.

Quality and Responsibility do not come cheap

Responsible breeders are lucky to break even let alone turn a profit and they do not mass produce liiter after litter of puppies

Beautiful healthy puppies, unconditional love and new owners smiling faces.... PRICELESS

This isn't even everything, it was just a quick overview.

[Patch O' Pits]

so i ask, ......what's the motivation? It is the love of the breed that keeps the good breeders going

[j921]

The puppy in my avatar is Champion sired by a top 20 dog. I only produce excellent quality puppies and that is part of the reason I make money staying home and doing what I love. I can't help it that I am a successful breeder and I am not going to appolgize for it. I stand behind every puppy I produce with a puppy/health contract and a lifelong return policy.

Many would argue that no one is responsible for breeding Pit-bulls since they are the only breed that the majority end up killed in shelters.

[Patch O' Pits]

The puppy in my avatar is Champion sired by a top 20 dog. I only produce excellent quality puppies and that is part of the reason I make money staying home and doing what I love. I can't help it that I am a successful breeder and I am not going to appolgize for it. I stand behind every puppy I produce with a puppy/health contract and a lifelong return policy.

Many would argue that no one is responsible for breeding Pit-bulls since they are the only breed that the majority end up killed in shelters.

Pups end up in shelters because BYBs are pumping them out like an assembly line and not screening new owners not taking dogs back and not microchipping and or being responsible to begin with than add to that irresponsible owners and you've got full shelters. There are too many dogs of every breed in the shelter as far as I see, but ABTs are getting too popular with BYBs imo and that is a big problem.

That is good to hear that you produce good quality pups. The pup in your avatar is cute. Do you show w/ UKC? Just curious what is your kennel name, I'd like to take a peek at your dogs. It is of course my favorite breed. :)

Just wanted to add:
I have nothing against responsible breeders who do everything it takes to insure the quality/temperament and future of the breed. It would be hypocritical of me if I did, as I am a breeder.
Two of the four pups in my last litter were titled in 2005 one also has a leg towards his grch. They come from GRCH sire and CH dam and bloodlines and were both health tested and DNA-P the breeding was researched for over a year before it was planned.

[DiggityDogs]

My dobe came from a breeder friend of mine, she makes a living from her breeding. Of course she also handles all breeds professionally, teaches obedience and conformation, and owns a boarding kennel. She does make the bulk of her money from pups, however. she does all of the testing needed, OFA, VwD, and registers AKC with their DNA registry. It's not cheap. But, she is also an army certified vet tech and can take care of most medical issues herself, and pet quality pups with a spay-neuter contract still start at $1000-$1200. Show pups start at $2000 and go up depending on quality and age, if they're already pointed she's made as much as $5000 for a nice pointed (not finished) male. The thing is, you can't be a hobbyist to make the money. She's done this for 30 years and worked very hard to produce these dogs, and she makes a darn good living off of it, she's still very responsible, but you can't expect to but a couple of dogs and breed them and get rich. It takes a ton of work.

[Patch O' Pits]

My dobe came from a breeder friend of mine, she makes a living from her breeding. Of course she also handles all breeds professionally, teaches obedience and conformation, and owns a boarding kennel. She does make the bulk of her money from pups, however. she does all of the testing needed, OFA, VwD, and registers AKC with their DNA registry. It's not cheap. But, she is also an army certified vet tech and can take care of most medical issues herself, and pet quality pups with a spay-neuter contract still start at $1000-$1200. Show pups start at $2000 and go up depending on quality and age, if they're already pointed she's made as much as $5000 for a nice pointed (not finished) male. The thing is, you can't be a hobbyist to make the money. She's done this for 30 years and worked very hard to produce these dogs, and she makes a darn good living off of it, she's still very responsible, but you can't expect to but a couple of dogs and breed them and get rich. It takes a ton of work.

Obviously havng a couple of dogs and breeding them won't get you rich, but also having a bunch of dogs and breeding responsibly shouldn't either.
Meaning... responsible breeders do not breed litter after litter having several litters a year every year because they are concerned not only about breed over population, but the shelters that are full and the dogs themselves.

Breeding is TONS of work.

It is honestly quite common to sell a pointed and or Ch or trained dog for more than a green pup. Now remember the price may be higher but so was the expense that person but into the dog. That goes the same when breeding quality pups. Anyone can give shots and do the worming it isn't rocket science, but the health tests and if needed hormone testing now that is a different story. There is also icrochipping or tatoos which need to be done

Just making the point here that there are always other costs a responsible breeder is paying for... the showing , training the time alone is astronomical. The lack of sleep, cleaning up puppy poop pretty much on a non stop basis the screening process for potential owners. It is no cake walk. Just look at the hole list I posted of things and then figure out how much she really made and how many years it took her to even break even after health testing her stock.

I'll repeat this again Breeders do not breed to get rich LOL but for the love of the breed.

I don't have any idea about anyone's breeding practices here nor am I here to judge, these are just facts I've learned from mentors and friends who have been around dogs and breeding show and working dogs for almost more years than I've been alive.

[DiggityDogs]

Obviously havng a couple of dogs and breeding them won't get you rich, but also having a bunch of dogs and breeding responsibly shouldn't either. [/QUOTE]

I never said she had a 'bunch of dogs', nor did I say she was rich. I believe I did mention she supported her breeding program by handling all breeds professionally, teaching lessons, and owning a boarding kennel

Meaning... responsible breeders do not breed litter after litter having several litters a year every year because they are concerned not only about breed over population, but the shelters that are full and the dogs themselves.

I also never said she breeds litter after litter.

Breeding is TONS of work.

I believe I already said that in my post.

It is honestly quite common to sell a pointed and or Ch or trained dog for more than a green pup. Now remember the price may be higher but so was the expense that person but into the dog.

Not when you are a recognized pro handler and your clients and sponsors pay all of your show expenses.

That goes the same when breeding quality pups. Anyone can give shots and do the worming it isn't rocket science, but the health tests and if needed hormone testing now that is a different story. There is also icrochipping or tatoos which need to be done.

Microchipping can be done by anyone who knows how to give a subcutaneous injection and the kits can be easily purchased online. She does this herself. She no longer tattoos her dogs since microchipping is available and she DNA registers all of them. I've never known her to need any type of 'hormone' testing, but if she did, she is well know by the local vets and they cut her a deal since her boarding kennel brings them a lot of business.

Just making the point here that there are always other costs a responsible breeder is paying for... the showing , training the time alone is astronomical. The lack of sleep, cleaning up puppy poop pretty much on a non stop basis the screening process for potential owners. It is no cake walk. Just look at the hole list I posted of things and then figure out how much she really made and how many years it took her to even break even after health testing her stock.

Of course I didn't take the time to do a penny by penny break down. However, like I said, I never said she was rich, but she does make a living. As for the 'astronomical costs' of training and showing, if you learn how to train for yourself (which anyone who spends any time in the hobby should do) the only cost there is time. When you do this professionally it's your job to train and work with these dogs. Also as earlier mentioned, when she shows her dogs, she only has to cover entry fees because her clients are required to split traveling costs and pay their own entries plus handling fees. As I stated before she's been doing this for 30 years- It did not happen overnight. She's only been able to be self sufficient from her business (without her husband's income) for the last 5 years or so.

I'll repeat this again Breeders do not breed to get rich LOL but for the love of the breed.

And I'll repeat again she's not rich, nor does she intent to be. She just wanted to find a way to do what she loves, full time. From the accomplishments she's accumulated and the pride I can see in her when she finishes a new champion it's obvious she loves the breed.

I don't have any idea about anyone's breeding practices here nor am I here to judge, these are just facts I've learned from mentors and friends who have been around dogs and breeding show and working dogs for almost more years than I've been alive.

It sounds like you have plenty of ideas about people's breeding practices and plenty of judgements to pass. Your statements are not necessarily facts. What you learn from other people is not always right, even if it's right in one person's situation doesn't mean it's the standard and that it's right for everyone. This is what I'VE learned from showing, assisting my friend as a breeder, and training dogs for the last 12 years.

I am not by any means encouraging anyone to breed for the hell of it, but I think it's an incorrect assumption to say that 'good' breeders cannot make money. It becomes a fulltime lifelong commitment and anyone who's not prepared to do that should not look into dogs as a carreer.

[Patch O' Pits]

expect to but a couple of dogs and breed them and get rich.
Actually the response I wrote about the couple of dogs and getting rich was because of your above statement... not in relationship to anything else

LOL Not trying to argue, but you seem to want to. Sorry I do not argue over just state facts and opinions and help out when I can on a couple of forums.

I feel it is expensive to breed and you said it wasn't so was stating facts to support my opinion. You are entitled to yours

...Maybe than you should word your posts with what you mean because you did say in your first post
My dobe came from a breeder friend of mine, she makes a living from her breeding.
You did not say she was making a living as a a pro handler / trainer you said breeding in your original... thus my response. Also if you read my response I didn't judge her or you in any way

Also a question if she sold her dog that was pointed why would other people prior to that be paying for his showing that makes no sense?... I'm going off what you posted again.

Obviously professional handlers get paid that has nothing to do with my response. What that has to do with breeding or this topic though I don't know. You also never mentioned any sponser. See with lack of info I can only go off of what you provide.

Yes microchipping can be done by anyone who has the proper equipment of course and it also is helpful to purchase the actual scanner to make sure they are done properly. Then each chip must be registered with the provider of the chips such as avid or home again


Originally Posted by Patch O' Pits
Breeding is TONS of work.

I believe I already said that in my post.
LOL at least we agree on one thing I also listed all the work that went into it before you posted if you take a peek.

That is great that she gets discounts almost all good breeders do if they work with the same vets for everything. Still doesn't make it cheap to breed

It sounds like you have plenty of ideas about people's breeding practices and plenty of judgements to pass. Your statements are not necessarily facts. What you learn from other people is not always right, even if it's right in one person's situation doesn't mean it's the standard and that it's right for everyone. This is what I'VE learned from showing, assisting my friend as a breeder, and training dogs for the last 12 years. Like I said I didn't pass judgement on anyone except BYBs . You also presented very different info in your posts than the first post. I do not know why you want to be so confrontational. You are the only one who seems to be passing out judgement. With all your friend is involved with I'm sure she is great and I'm not being sarcastic. She seems to be involved in bettering the breed and concerned for dogs in general.. I did however comment on things you posted originally because you said it was her living and left out ll that other stuff. I never said anyone was good or bad except for people who do it for CASH and not the well being of the dogs. Think whatever you want.

Hope that clears up what I was saying better. Sometimesd the lack of info posted causes a great deal of confusion

I am not by any means encouraging anyone to breed for the hell of it, but I think it's an incorrect assumption to say that 'good' breeders cannot make money.

A career in dogs and doing responsible breedings are related but not exactly the same thing in my eyes. A carrer is something like training, show handling, handling for performance events, grooming, boarding, vets, vet tech. To me breeding is a commitment to bettering the breed and being responsible for the dogs not a career. JMOThat is how I see it and My opinion. No one says you have to agree. Forums are in fact for differing opinions and for people to learn from each other.

It becomes a fulltime lifelong commitment We agree again. See the over all way we look at it is the same. ;)

Have a great weekend. Enjoy your dog. Dobes are gorgeous creatures. I grew up with one.

Nice chatting with you.

[DiggityDogs]

Actually the response I wrote about the couple of dogs and getting rich was because of your above statement... not in relationship to anything else

If you had bothered to read the whole sentence you would have noticed that that statement actually says "YOU CAN'T expect to buy a couple of dogs and breed them and get rich."

LOL Not trying to argue, but you seem to want to. Sorry I do not argue over just state facts and opinions and help out when I can on a couple of forums.

I don't see anywhere where you stated anything other than opinions.

I feel it is expensive to breed and you said it wasn't so was stating facts to support my opinion. You are entitled to yours
It may be expensive to breed, but when you've been doing it for as long as my friend has, you find ways to cut costs. Also, when your bitch whelps 12 puppies in three out of four litters that she'd had (over her entire breeding carreer, so don't get all crazy thinking she was bred over and over, this was over a span of 5 or 6 years, and she lived to a ripe old age of 12 and got to spend her last 5 or 6 years hanging out on the couch) -and these puppies (as pets) go for $1000 each, and show for more as we discussed earlier, you're looking at about $10,000 if we say she kept two and the rest were sold as pets, which the majority of them weren't. The argument here is not that breeding is expensive, but that money can be made back and then some if the circumstances are right. She has a waiting list of approved homes for these puppies, some people pay deposits months in advance. They're all sold by the time they reach 12-14 weeks. You can't tell me it costs $10,000 to breed a litter, even if there ARE complications.

...Maybe than you should word your posts with what you mean because you did say in your first post
You did not say she was making a living as a a pro handler / trainer you said breeding in your original... thus my response. Also if you read my response I didn't judge her or you in any way

I worded my post exactly how I meant it, and again if you'd bothered to finish the entire statement, it read like this: '' she makes a living from her breeding. Of course she also handles all breeds professionally, teaches obedience and conformation, and owns a boarding kennel. She does make the bulk of her money from pups, however."
this is a direct copy and paste from the original post. Dobermans whelp large litters. Even having 1 or 2 litters a year makes a good deal of income for her. And do not try to say that one or two litters per year is 'puppy milling and contributing to overpopulation', because if you breed EVEN ONE litter you are contributing to overpopulation. You can't be pro breeding, but only in the manner that you say is appropriate. You're either for breeding or not.

Also a question if she sold her dog that was pointed why would other people prior to that be paying for his showing that makes no sense?... I'm going off what you posted again.

To answer your question- She is not paid to handle her own dog. She regularly has 10 or so clients dogs that go to shows with her, several different breeds. Her clients pay thier own entry fees, pay her handling fees per day, and then split the cost of her travel and lodging expenses between them. All she pays to show her own dogs on these trips is the entry fees. Most professional handlers that I know charge similarly.

Obviously professional handlers get paid that has nothing to do with my response. What that has to do with breeding or this topic though I don't know. You also never mentioned any sponser. See with lack of info I can only go off of what you provide.
Handlers getting paid had a lot to do with my response. This was to provide evidence that she does this as a full time job and MAKES ways to make profit from her love of dobermans and dogs in general. No, I did not mention a sponsor until my second post, because I didn't know you needed to know every detail of her business for gracing me with your reply. Since you 'need more info to work with', she occasionally has a sponser who will help cover her costs. The last two that I have known of have been owners of top 20 dogs that she'd handled to that point. The specifics of the sponsorship I don't know, as I don't feel it's necissary to know every detail.

Yes microchipping can be done by anyone who has the proper equipment of course and it also is helpful to purchase the actual scanner to make sure they are done properly. Then each chip must be registered with the provider of the chips such as avid or home again
The scanner costs about $300. She does have one of those. Before she bought her own, the vet down the street checked them for her for free. Registration is something like $10 per if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Patch O' Pits
Breeding is TONS of work.


LOL at least we agree on one thing I also listed all the work that went into it before you posted if you take a peek.

I did 'take a peek' at that post. It was full of statements that arent necessarily true. You say that she'd be lucky to break even, and I'm providing you with the facts about how she more than breaks even. There's no argument here- just defending my original statements against yours.

That is great that she gets discounts almost all good breeders do if they work with the same vets for everything. Still doesn't make it cheap to breed
I didn't say anywhere that it was 'cheap' to breed, just that it's not impossible to make money. As far as maintaining her breeding program, there is probably less maintenence cost in relation to the costs of running the boarding kennel, so I wouldn't say it's 'expensive' as far as a business goes.
Like I said I didn't pass judgement on anyone except BYBs . You also presented very different info in your posts than the first post. I do not know why you want to be so confrontational. You are the only one who seems to be passing out judgement.
I didn't think we were ever talking about BYB's, just about the costs of breeding? I didn't present different info in my 2nd post, just additional info.
I am not being confrontational, just rebutting against the post that you made using my original post as a quote. I assumed that's what you wanted when you quoted my entire post and attempted to disprove me.

With all your friend is involved with I'm sure she is great and I'm not being sarcastic. She seems to be involved in bettering the breed and concerned for dogs in general.. I did however comment on things you posted originally because you said it was her living and left out ll that other stuff. I never said anyone was good or bad except for people who do it for CASH and not the well being of the dogs. Think whatever you want.

Hope that clears up what I was saying better. Sometimesd the lack of info posted causes a great deal of confusion
She is a great breeder, my dog is proof of that, along with the many other akc/skc/ukc/alla rasse champions she's bred and handled. Her foundation bitch (mentioned earlier in the post that had 12 pups in each of 3 litters) was the SKC's first grand national champion with 6 best in shows and 42 best of breeds (skc) and multiple AKC breed wins at her retirement. I don't feel like there was a lack of info- again I didn't realize you needed to know every detail of how she makes her living, but I did mention in my original post that she also handled professionally, trains, and runs a boarding kennel.


A career in dogs and doing responsible breedings are related but not exactly the same thing in my eyes. A carrer is something like training, show handling, handling for performance events, grooming, boarding, vets, vet tech. To me breeding is a commitment to bettering the breed and being responsible for the dogs not a career.
You're right, a carreer and responsible breedings are not the same. However, if she had not been breeding and owner handling for years and had not been known for her own dogs she would not have a career handling. There cannot be one without the other in this case, therefore the are the same. (in this case)

My friend has made this her life's work for many years, and yes it took her a long time to be able to support her dog habits without outside income from her husband, but it can and is being done. The point is, Breeding a dog does not always put you in the poorhouse. Even within the 'ethical and responsible' breeder community, there are a lot of different ways and means. I don't feel like we're arguing- just debating.

I do enjoy my dog, every day. he's a wonderful ambassador for the breed. I think we both face the same challenges with our breeds- the stereotypes, the reputations, and working towards bettering these wonderful breeds is the best we can do.

Here is my dog, (Daniel's) sire at winning his AKC CH

[Patch O' Pits]

If you had bothered to read the whole sentence you would have noticed that that statement actually says "YOU CAN'T expect to buy a couple of dogs and breed them and get rich." LOL I absolutely did read it that way. That is why I responded the way I did

I don't see anywhere where you stated anything other than opinions.It was full of statements that arent necessarily true.
Try looking at the whole post I made on costs and what responsible breeders do hmmmm looks like fact to me , but you are enttled to your opinion like I said before. That list was compliled not only by me but several other breeders... I didn't pull the info just out of the air.

It may be expensive to breed, but when you've been doing it for as long as my friend has, you find ways to cut costs.
You were infact telling those who us who said it was expensive that we just did it to deter others from breeding. Of course breeders learn ways to cut costs that is common sense but their are still expenses

You can't tell me it costs $10,000 to breed a litter, even if there ARE complications.everything deends on the dogs the stud and the particular litter. 10,000 yes would be very excessive for a litter. Also if repeatedly using dogs that are already Ch and tested the costs do go down because the dog doesn't need to redo those expenses. Again that is common sense


I worded my post exactly how I meant it, and again if you'd bothered to finish the entire statement, it read like this: '' she makes a living from her breeding. Of course she also handles all breeds professionally, teaches obedience and conformation, and owns a boarding kennel. She does make the bulk of her money from pups, however." I still think the other stuff sounds like more of her job and the breeding a side thing done more for the love of the breed, but that is my opinion


this is a direct copy and paste from the original post. Dobermans whelp large litters. Even having 1 or 2 litters a year makes a good deal of income for her. And do not try to say that one or two litters per year is 'puppy milling and contributing to overpopulation', because if you breed EVEN ONE litter you are contributing to overpopulation. You can't be pro breeding, but only in the manner that you say is appropriate. You're either for breeding or not. I belive that one or two litters is fine when done properly and monitored and placed in good homes. IMO it does not lead to over population or dogs in shelters because the breeder takes responsibility for those pups and would take them back. It seems your friend is an example of this practice. Puppy milling and BYBs are not the same thing as that. So yes, I am for responsible breeding but not the other and yes there is a HUGE difference. But then again that is my feelings on it.


I didn't present different info in my 2nd post, just additional info.
I am not being confrontational, just rebutting against the post that you made using my original post as a quote. I assumed that's what you wanted when you quoted my entire post and attempted to disprove me.
The additional info surely was very diferent than just saying she breeds for a living. It added a whole new dynamic to the effort she puts into bettering the breed. As for quoting an entire post. LOL It was easier than picking through and quoting different section as I am know. I stink at typing :)


again I didn't realize you needed to know every detail of how she makes her living, but I did mention in my original post that she also handled professionally, trains, and runs a boarding kennel.

You're right, a carreer and responsible breedings are not the same. However, if she had not been breeding and owner handling for years and had not been known for her own dogs she would not have a career handling. There cannot be one without the other in this case, therefore the are the same. (in this case)
I don't need to know everything nor anything about this person as a matter of fact. You posted so I resoponded. It sounds like she is a very dedicated person who is looking out for her dogs. From what you posted I feel breeding is part of her life and commitment but the rest is her job from what you posted.
That JMO> You can't change that. Personally it sn't really my concern, but you posted it

My friend has made this her life's work for many years, and yes it took her a long time to be able to support her dog habits without outside income from her husband, but it can and is being done. The point is, Breeding a dog does not always put you in the poorhouse. Even within the 'ethical and It should not but you in the poorhouse so to speak. LOL But she makes money off of other venues to help support her program which has to do with dogs but not actually breeding. Thus, breeding it is not her living in my eyes, but yes I can see she does make some money from it.

[Patch O' Pits]

I do enjoy my dog, every day. he's a wonderful ambassador for the breed. I think we both face the same challenges with our breeds- the stereotypes, the reputations, and working towards bettering these wonderful breeds is the best we can do.

Here is my dog, (Daniel's) sire at winning his AKC CH

That is great! Yes, I agree we face aot of the same media hype and myths. His sire looks very stoic. Is he also a working dog. I'm asking because he appears to have great angles and conditioning which many seem have lost over the years in the breed ring

[DiggityDogs]

Well- I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm tired of responding anyhow. Although, I'm not sure we disagreed on all that much to begin with.

Henry, the dog pictured, is not a working dog per se, unless you count agility and therapy. He does have 10 acres to run on and his breeder prides herself on conditioning her dogs. They should be able to function and be beautiful at the same time. I'd like to get my dobe (his son) into tracking or shutzhund, but he really doesn't have much drive. I've been working to build it but I think he might be best suited for therapy. He's really loving the protection thing, but not interested in bite work in the least. He just wants to bark and make a bunch of noise. He's just a big goofy puppy, although in the last month or so he's matured quite a bit. He's much more graceful and not quite the bull-in-a-china shop he used to be.

[Patch O' Pits]

Well- I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm tired of responding anyhow. Although, I'm not sure we disagreed on all that much to begin with.

Henry, the dog pictured, is not a working dog per se, unless you count agility and therapy. He does have 10 acres to run on and his breeder prides herself on conditioning her dogs. They should be able to function and be beautiful at the same time. I'd like to get my dobe (his son) into tracking or shutzhund, but he really doesn't have much drive. I've been working to build it but I think he might be best suited for therapy. He's really loving the protection thing, but not interested in bite work in the least. He just wants to bark and make a bunch of noise. He's just a big goofy puppy, although in the last month or so he's matured quite a bit. He's much more graceful and not quite the bull-in-a-china shop he used to be.

I feel too many breeders don't breed for the total package... So it's great to see that. I feel any job/sport like that is working so those count big time in my book because it proves both temperament and ability:)

Your pup is a beauty too.:) Hope he excells in the sports.

LOL I have to laugh about the maturity thing. My boys mature slowly too.

[ashbrookecs]

Hi all,
first time posting here. I'm reading with interest the posts on making $$ breeding dogs. I've been exhibiting for 18 years (AKC), and breeding for 10. There is no question, it *looks* like you're making a lot of money when the litter leaves w/i a course of a week or two, and the checks are coming in. When you add up all that goes into the litter, it rarely evens out in the long run, IF you do it right, as several posters have said already. Some additional expenses that I have include:

Crate - $50 (all my puppies go home with a brand new wire crate that they've already spent some time in, to make the transition easier)

bed - $10 (smells like littermates)
toys/chewies - $10.00 (ditto)

Food - $10 (8 pound bag)

leash/collar - $12

Brush - $5 (mine is a grooming breed)

Ear cleaner - $5

snood - (long eared breed) $4

TONS of pictures of each puppy, from birth to 10 weeks when they leave - this costs me a small fortune <g>, as I LOVE to provide this for my puppy buyers, who adore them! They are put into a photo album for each puppy to take home. My current litter of 6 is 8 weeks old, and I've already spent over $100 at Walmart on photos! :p

Microchip & Health Certificate - $45 & $25 respectively

None of my puppies have ever ended up in a shelter - I *have* taken back a couple that didn't work out for different reasons, but I know where every puppy I've ever put on this earth is. I send Christmas cards to all my buyers every year, and a card on their first birthday. I hold a huge Reunion/cookout every July for all my puppies, at a large expense to me. ALL of this is purely for the love of the breed, NOT to pay my taxes, or put food on my table! If I *didn't* breed/show dogs, I can't even imagine the vacations I could take OTHER than my Nat'l Specialty every year! ;)

Anyway, just some more on an already much talked about issue, but one that is dear to my heart. I am also a professional dog groomer, and it drives me nuts when my clients say, "oh, you must make a ton of money breeding dogs!" - NO, I make my $$ grooming YOUR dirty dogs! :D

I've bred 26 AKC Champions to date, and it took A LOT of time and money to do that. I just don't like it when folks act like we're robbing them blind when we tell them what we charge for puppies!

[Stark]

I'm always amused at what I read about"Professional" Breeders and how they do this and that. I had an American Staffordshire Terrier I purchased from a breeder in Florida over 20 years ago. Owner trained and handled he finished in AKC by 13 months and was UKC pointed, he came from one of the top breeders in the country and probably one of the biggest crooks. I spent hour on top of hour with this breeder to the point she shared her dark practices (No I'm not nieve to think she is alone)with me. Let me respond first to an earlier post regarding the bitch or dog. They do not have to be champions or be that perfect conformation wise. One of this ladies ugliest bitches produced some of the nicest pups you've ever seen. I witnessed this breeder breed bitches to 2-3 different stud dogs during one heat, I wonder who should go on the papers. I witnessed this breeder breed bitches to a dog known to severe Hip Dysplacia. If you bought a pup and wanted the ears cropped you could pick it up the next day after the vet cropped its ears.(Yeah right, she cropped the ears herself that's where I learned how to do it). I know, I know, that's just one person right. Please talk your BS to someone who doesn't know from the inside. There are some good breeders out there but they don't have to defend themselves. I'm sorry unless you have more money than you need you're not doing it for nothing. No most of you don't go to the vet and have your pups checked, you give your own vaccines and whatever else to cut cost.
You don't breed to improve the breed when you have 6-8 litters per year you can't determine the outcome of a previous litter that fast. Please you don't have the hips checked each breeding, or show to your championship again, very few seek out a stud but a few times before they buy or produce one. All the more reason why I'm glad my breed is to ugly and psyched out to be commercialized.

[luv4gsds]

By all means if you do everything right by your pups and dam there is no way of getting rich off of sailing pups. It cost me $2,102 and up this is just from one dam. That isn't including registring a litter with AKC and the training put in for the dam. Most people out there are not going to spend over eighteen hundred dollars (US) for a pup. Now if the pup has started in training (any type of sports or personal protection) and has some show experience, then you would pay more. But a eight week ol' pup no way.

Avid Microchipping (FriendChips)- $50.00 and on up
Food for dam- $150.00 a month (raw)
Food for pups- $250.00 and up (raw)
Vet check- $65.00 each pup
PennHip- $250.00
crates- $50.00 each
ex-pen- $45.00
Whelping supplies- $300.00 and up
Puppy collars= $32.00 ($4.00 each for eight pups)
Toys- $45.00 (for eight pups)
Vaccination= $60.00 (for eight pups)
Mind you these are just some of the things.

Not including "Time and Patience" of house train and leash train and all the other puppy stuff.

[DiggityDogs]

$2102 you spent on one dam... What breed is this? Just curious because of litter size. If you say you spent that much including food, and sell a pup for $1800, it would take two pups to make your money back and have a little profit- that's a small litter. I know that some dogs only have a couple of pups at a time, but that's why I'm curious as to what breed. If you have a dog, for example, that has a large litter, I'll use my friend the dobie breeder for the example here, and you spent $2102 for the year on the bitch, and there were, let's say, 6 pups in the litter. Pet puppies go for $1000, and there is a waiting list for her dogs, so they're all sold before they even hit the ground. Playing it safe and saying that all 6 turned out to be pets, that's $6000. (Although there are usually a few show pups in the mix that will sell from $1500-$2500, depending on the quality at 8 to 9 weeks.) So, $6000-$2102= $3898. I'd say that's a pretty big profit off of a litter of pups, more than what the initial investment was...

And if your vet charges you $65 per pup for an exam you're getting ripped off. Most vets in MY area charge a single exam fee for the whole litter and then charge individually for the shots. My friend the breeder, however, does her shots herself and the vet comes to her house to check the pups for a flat fee.

[luv4gsds]

That is how much I spend on a litter of eight pups (german shepherds). It is a some what more because of the vet visits for my dam when she is pregnant and not pregnant. I was giving a esteem of what I have to spend on a litter of just eight pups.

Nope I'm not getting ripped off either and it isn't just one vet. You just take a look at all the health problems in the German Shepherd breed. I do it all with my pups, I just don't take them for their just exam. Thats what I mean by doing everything right by pups and dam. I do their vaccination and worming at home.

Thats what gets me about people sailing eight week old pups for $2500 each. If I'm going to spend that kind of money on a dog it better have some titles in its name.

I wanted to make myself clear the vet visits are for new born pups and old pups for one litter. The pups that are left over from a breeding they will get extra exams done.

[DiggityDogs]

Nope I'm not getting ripped off either and it isn't just one vet. You just take a look at all the health problems in the German Shepherd breed. I do it all with my pups, I just don't take them for their just exam. Thats what I mean by doing everything right by pups and dam. I do their vaccination and worming at home.


So, what is it you do with the pups (health wise) besides getting shots or an exam done? Is there health testing that's done on a puppy before selling it?
I know that many vets charge like that, but what I'm saying is if it's costing you that much you could likely find one that does it differently.
My friend the breeder tests for everything a dobie is prone to get- thyroid, hips, VwD, etc. The parents are always titled before breeding at LEAST in comformation, if not also in obedience to a CDX level. There are hardly ever pups left over from a litter for her as she has a waiting list of people looking for one of her babies, and she doesn't breed unless there is a list. Some people wait upwards of a year or more for a specific pup or breeding. People are willing to pay her for the time and effort she puts in, and also for the quality of dog they'll recieve. I just want to point out that you can't generalize what should and should not be charged, and also that you 'shouldn't' make any money off of it if 'done properly' as my friend does everything properly- including micro chipping and dna registry with the AKC. (from what I understand this is a new program and I don't know much about it, just that my friend decided to take part in it.) I would be willing to bet that she makes a little profit off of her litters, so your experience with it must be totally different than mine.

[luv4gsds]

I didn't come here to argue with YOU or anyone else on this board. I'm just stating MY facts no one elses. Your so called friend good for her and what ever she does with her dogs and pups. I'm just stating that only way I'LL pay that kind of money is when that pup/dog has some titles to its name. And to end my note. You still don't get rich from sailing pups.

[Stark]

The last 2 litters I bred and sold was 10 years ago, 17 puppies at an average of $450.00 each on the low end. Gave all my vaccinations and did all worming. No I didn't take them to the vet, I spent hours upon hours with different breeders and my vet to learn all I could. I can listen to their heart and lungs for free which is about all that's really done for a health certificate, let's get real. The bottom line is very few problems are detected as pups. I cleared $6800.00 or more, why. You can't charge for the bitch and their health test every time you breed, or the food, x pen, penn hip, whelping supplies maybe $10.00 for a few towels. Most of those things are a one time purchase. Of course my opinion is anyone who pays more than a few hundred for a dog coming from a dam and sire without working titles and the correct temperment are getting ripped anyway, not to mention a pet quality pup isn't worth any more than $200 to $300 at best. What the hell, if you're willing to pay I'm willing to sell.

Buyer Beware

[DiggityDogs]

I didn't come here to argue with YOU or anyone else on this board. I'm just stating MY facts no one elses. Your so called friend good for her and what ever she does with her dogs and pups. I'm just stating that only way I'LL pay that kind of money is when that pup/dog has some titles to its name. And to end my note. You still don't get rich from sailing pups.

I'm not arguing with you... I'm stating an opposing opinion. I guess I'm not allowed to have mine, though. Nobody ever said you'd get rich- but you can sure turn a profit.
I was simply asking some questions because you're saying that you do 'it all withyour pups, not just shots and check ups' and I'm curious as to what that entails. I've never heard of anyone who does any further health testing with their pups unless some puppyhood illness pops up.

As far as what you'll pay for a pup= you get what you pay for, and you produce that when you breed your dogs, so what you'll pay for a puppy is fine, What my friend would pay for a dog or puppy is the reason she can make that kind of money from them. She wouldn't hesitate to invest in a really nice stud or bitch from someone else's line if it would improve hers.

Anyhow- like i said, I guess I'm not entitled to my opinion- sorry, I had no idea you'd get so touchy over me asking questions about your breedings!